BBC2 9pm 19/02: The Railways - Keeping Britain on Track

[biofichompinc]

jim wrote: salt 'n pepper wrote: ......We used to have two train stations!Guess what the other one was called. I remember Morley (Top) very well. When we .....Simple pleasures. That's the one Jim.My grandma travelled to Australia over sixty years ago. The first stage of her journey was to Tilbury Docks in London - starting from Morley Top Station after she had walked about sixty or so yards from the back door of the house with a couple of cases. Nice little picture of Morley Top Station at the red cross.There is another one a few years after closure here....http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2263917

[cnosni]

Phill_dvsn wrote: It just reminded me how much I missed the good old railways, the days when drivers actually looked like drivers, desperados, gangsters, or just a motley bunch like this lothttp://www.flickr.com/photos/deadmans_handle/s ... 2/detail/I don't care for today's shirt and tie airline style train pilots, and the customer service jobs worth's we saw on that program.     Hope youre not on about me Thing is that the job has completely and utterly changed,most of those old hands would not be able to handle the pressure of the job now.In the old days there were many things,such as speeding,station overuns,trains accidentally seperating (due to not being coupled properly),signals passed at danger,turning up for work under the influence of alcohol etc,that were swept under th carpet "Squared UP" being the Rrailway term.A huge proportion of those drivers would have been out of a job by now if they had driven/behaved that way today.We have in cab "Black Boxes" (OTMR) where following a download a drivers performance can be assessed to the TOC's defensive driving policy,if the black box shows that the driver has not driven to the accepted standards then questions are asked,sometimes very big ones in which a driver is finished.Additionally there is also a system called project Falcon,where a trains journey can be monitored live from control,even down to exactly what the driver is doing with the controls at any given moment,imagine your boss stood over your shoulder for all of your shift,constantly watching what you are doing,and any little misjudgement or lack of concentration,which anyone can make in any job,is picked up and if necessary investigated.Trackside equipment such as AWS and TPWS ensure safety for passengers and crew alike,are also a potential path to disciplinary action or dismissal.If a driver overspeeds and sets off TPWS or misses AWS and the brake applies then there is a big fuss made,and believe me there is no hard and fast rule on who this can happen to,there are far more experienced drivers with 30 years experience who have had/having incidents with AWS and TPWS.In any of the above situations ,and others such as station misses,overuns,roll backs (in cab CCTV as well if you please) the driver is usually (ifthe incident is not down to faulty equipment) placed on a monitoring program of sorts.This can involve a number of different forms of monitoring for different TOC's but once you start having these instances,and there if there gets to be an unnaceptable number,then you are on the way out of the door.This could well explain the attitude of drivers today,they are not willing to lose their jobs by cutting corners or risky driving,cutting corners and risky driving in the old days had a blind eye turned to it,today its a potential to be sacked or even prosecuted.I dont think there are too many jobs outside the military/civilian services where you can go iinto work in the morning and be facing possible disciplinary action in the afternoon because you made an error.Anyway,i wasnt on it last night,might be on another.

[Jogon]

cnosni wrote: Phill_dvsn wrote: .........days when drivers actually looked like drivers, desperados, gangsters.... style train pilots, and the customer service jobs worth's we saw on that program Hope youre not on about me ......I dont think there are too many jobs outside the military/civilian services where you can go iinto work in the morning and be facing possible disciplinary action in the afternoon because you made an error...... There are many such jobs, lots with no possibility of retiring sick and blagging a full pension 'as exit'. Regarding this thread's subject matter - thanks for posting, I watched and enjoyed recognising a few folks there from regular use.I've always been polite though....

[cnosni]

Jogon wrote: cnosni wrote: Phill_dvsn wrote: .........days when drivers actually looked like drivers, desperados, gangsters.... style train pilots, and the customer service jobs worth's we saw on that program Hope youre not on about me ......I dont think there are too many jobs outside the military/civilian services where you can go iinto work in the morning and be facing possible disciplinary action in the afternoon because you made an error...... There are many such jobs, lots with no possibility of retiring sick and blagging a full pension 'as exit'. Regarding this thread's subject matter - thanks for posting, I watched and enjoyed recognising a few folks there from regular use.I've always been polite though.... Many such jobs such as....?I take it that you would want someone driving your train who is not fit to do so?I know,his/her eyesight is no longer fit for driving a train/flying a plane,lets keep them on shall we.People on the railway are no longer eligible to retire sick unless they are at a retirement age,which these days on the Railway pension is above 55.Below this and you dont get your pension til retirement age,and then it is only a lesser percentage than what you would have got if you would have worked til your full retirement age.Not sure where you get your information from,but its not accurate.

[Jogon]

Sorry cnosni - I wasn't talking of rail folk (who do good job despite the worst aspects of the public). I'm a user and have seen this and know the score.I had more in mind many of the recent police and nhs scandals where people seem to retire sick and take full pension.[edit] there are plenty of jobs where error = disciplinary, etc.    

[cnosni]

dogduke wrote: I watched the first program on King's cross which wasn't too bad but I think they missed the boat at Leeds,I don't think the producer could decide wether to be informative or entertaining and in the end achieved neither.Too much time was devoted to places and events far from Leeds,although I remember an old controlller I worked with remarking "If somebody sneezes in *** Bristol we catch a cold in Leeds"Running Leeds station can be a nightmare at times,perhaps more attention could have centered on what went on to maintain services.The Co-ordinating Supervisor (do they still call him that) a Northern employee runs the job(from an office) according to the various train companies needs and liases with the Leeds West signaller.How many people who watched know that the signalling is controlled from York ?.More time showing how these people operate would have been more interesting.Do people know that much of the signalling is controlled by computers and the signaller usually only intervenes when needed ?Many of the people who have complaints( real or imagined)about the railway would never survive a couple of days working as some rail employees do never mind a lifetime.Rant over - Amen. You are right.Im not a long term railway employee,i spent most of my working life outside the railway.It wasnt til i came to the railway that i realised just how huge and complicated a set up it is.We cant expect the general public to fully comprehend the workings of the railway,which is why you get certain reactions from certain people.Ill give you an example which happened only yesterday.I was travelling pass to KX on a HST during disruption when the train stopeed in a platform at which we are not booked to stop.Realising this i went to assist the guard in trying to prevent people on the platform from trying to open the doors.HST's are slam door stock with a retro fitted central locking systemunlike rolling stock with electric doors,these doors can still be open to an extent even when the central locking system is still on.This is calle "First Catch",as the door can be opened to its first door catch without fully opening.However,at high speed thess doors have the potential to rip off,and im sure we can all understand the implications in this.Anyway the problem was not so much from pasengers on the paltform but those on board,who were leaning out and trying the door handles.This resulted in 4 doors being on first catch,so the guard had to get off and secure the doors.People were natuarally complaining about the further delay,i did my best to explain why.A passenger said ratyher sardonically that this is just "Health and Safety again i suppose".So i tried to give them an example that they could relate to,which was"If you knew your car door was not fully closed would you set off on a motorway journey at 70mph without closing it?"To which he replied of "course not","well",i replied,this train is going to accelerate to 80mph when it leaves this platform,would it be safe to do that with all these people on board?"We cant expect passnegers to be fully aware for the reasons why things are like they are on the railway,but when i joined i was told every rule and safety measure have come about because at some time or another someone has either been hurt or even killed,and the rule/safety measure has been introduced to try and prevent the reoccurance of the same incident.The railways are a mass public transport system,which on the whole is generally safe ,if not always punctual.It is safe because of railway personel implementing safety measures when they are needed,and when they are not then people lose their lives,such as Ladbroke Grove,Potters Bar,Hatfield and this incidenthttp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/nov/15/train ... h-teenager    

[Phill_dvsn]

cnosni wrote: most of those old hands would not be able to handle the pressure of the job now.     Hey up csnosi. I was watching this excellent program about British Railways during World War 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsH4RpBw1xgThe first thing I thought was the quote you said above.I wonder how many drivers, not only drivers, but any of us could endure what those chaps had to put up with during the war years? Anything from having to fire poorly maintained, and worn out engines. Driving ammunition trains that were so heavy, they were stuck on runaway trains, not being able to pin down the brakes on ammo trains so the sparks don't blow your deadly cargo sky high. Driving into Plymouth one night, the train crew could see Plymouth ablaze in the middle of an air raid. Stopping just outside of the city in the blackout, the fireman gets down from the train and stands on the station platform. Well he at first thought it was a platform, but soon realised he was stood on top of a viaduct narrow parapet wall with a 50ft sheer drop the other side     

[uncle mick]

Phill_dvsn wrote: cnosni wrote: most of those old hands would not be able to handle the pressure of the job now.     Hey up csnosi. I was watching this excellent program about British Railways during World War 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsH4RpBw1xgThe first thing I thought was the quote you said above.I wonder how many drivers, not only drivers, but any of us could endure what those chaps had to put up with during the war years? (Quote Phil)My father used drive to drive trains during the war. He used to tell tales of the American troops giving him cigars etc, I suppose I only heard the good tales been a kid.He did 47 years on the railway, I still have the watch they gave him on his retirement     

[cnosni]

uncle mick wrote: Phill_dvsn wrote: cnosni wrote: most of those old hands would not be able to handle the pressure of the job now.     Hey up csnosi. I was watching this excellent program about British Railways during World War 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsH4RpBw1xgThe first thing I thought was the quote you said above.I wonder how many drivers, not only drivers, but any of us could endure what those chaps had to put up with during the war years? (Quote Phil)My father used drive to drive trains during the war. He used to tell tales of the American troops giving him cigars etc, I suppose I only heard the good tales been a kid.He did 47 years on the railway, I still have the watch they gave him on his retirement      Indeed Mick,im not sure anyone could have put up with that.My point about old hand drivers not being able to handle the pressure of the job now wasnt a reference to their character as a person,its that the focus these days is on perfoirmance within strict guidelines that can be assessed through computers etc,with no blind eye given to errors.In the old days drivers could (and did) drive over the speed limits to make up time,without fear of being caught.They could accidentally pass signals at danger and get away with it by squaring up the incident with the signaller.They could turn up drunk to work and get sent home,or go to the railway club at their turnaround destination and get plastered and then drive back.They could go past single yellows at whatever speed they knew to be safe and didnt have the threat of AWS and TPWS blowing them out and then getting investigated/checked for alcohol and drugs etc.You cant tell the signaller where to go when they have put a freight in front of you,.... the list could go on.In a nutshell the job is easier physically today more sanitised,but miuch much more closely monitored.If your dad would have had his supervisor in the cab everyday all day,monitoring what he was doing and asking why he was doing a particular move/action then he would have told his supervisor to "Foxtrot Oscar" out of the cab,and even then he wouldnt have been down the road for doing so.Driving trains is no longer down to the judgement of the driver,but the strict criteria which is laid down by the TOC's and Network RailThats why drivers these days dont take any risks by going outside those criteria,or they will end up out of a very well paid job.

[Cardiarms]

Referring back to the Kirkstall Railway, one of the engines was an old YW one from a sewage works, 'leased' to the railway so long ago I'm sure it was forgotten. When informed that it was coming back some frantic calls ensured that it was staying in Yorkshire and off to Embsay rather than Wales. To get the low loader in they had to take the BHS fence down. Wish I'd known as I would have got some photos.