any present day evidence of any train tracks at Crown Point area at all now?

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Tue 15 May, 2012 5:27 pm

pablo leeds wrote: thanks again Phill. so the wagon lift marked by the photographer has incorrectly labelled a none-surviving one? If you take a look at the good and rough side of the wagon tower you would have to conclude yes the photographer has marked off the wrong tower. It's highly likely he does know which tower was saved, but because his photo doesn't show it, he's marked the one you can see, they are afterall identical.

jim · Post by **jim** » Tue 15 May, 2012 6:45 pm

Phill is absolutely correct in his assertion that the surviving tower is the northernmost, and the attribution in the photo that pablo posted and correctly questioned is wrong. The reason that the hoists are situated at right angles to the tracks is that wagons were turned on turntables through ninety degrees to access them. If one thinks about it, having them with direct access from running lines would be asking for trouble - the first rough shunt or runaway would leave a hoist shaft full of wagons and locomotives, not a situation to lightly contemplate. The later "third" tower was direct access, but from reversed sidings, not direct from running lines. Even in that case there were wagon turntables immediately in front of the hoist entrances (at both upper and lower levels) and cross tracks to aid access from all the sidings in the area.As to the joint ownership that Phill mentions, the events from 1846 when the Joint Committee was set up to 1854 when things settled down were so complicated that David Joy's South and West Yorkshire volume in the "Regional History of the Railways of Great Britain" takes four pages to try and disentangle it, and still leaves much that is foggy or completely unsaid.The original intent was to build the station with its entrance on Park Row, but the Corporation would have none of it, as it would damage the business area too much. The Leeds and Thirsk and LNWR began to use the later site of the high level goods shed as a passenger terminus in 1849, as the later passenger station was unfinished. In 1850 the GNR started to use the low level goods yard as its passenger station, transferring its trains from the N.M. Hunslet Lane Station (reached via Methley) via the Whitehall Curve and reversing at Gelderd Junction. The L&T and the LNWR moved their trains to Leeds Wellington later the same year.From 1851 Central Station was used only by the L&Y until 1854. In that year the GNR returned, and the station was finally completed (!) in 1857.The LNWR "New Line" was opened in 1882 to ease congestion on the line into Leeds New station after that station had been opened in 1869 and the NER and LNWR trains transferred there from Wellington, but the "pinch point" was the tracks between Whitehall Junction and Leeds New, the north curve of the Holbeck triangle, and not the approaches to Central.I hope this sorts things out a little, feel free to query any or all of this. Much has been left out, but I don't think most people would need more detail. EDIT:- Another reason for the hoists being at right angles to the running lines is that they were arranged in pairs, so that one going up was counterbalanced by its neighbour going down. This worked best if both were equally loaded, but there was still a usefull amount of balance if one was empty, as the platforms themselves were very substantially built and extremely heavy.

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Tue 15 May, 2012 8:06 pm

Phill_dvsn wrote: I don't think you can get a better photo than this, it shows the viaduct during demohttp://tinyurl.com/cx9tl96The tower on the left still survives. I guess they chose to keep that one as the good stonework side faces onto the main road. Some great photos and knowledge shared on this thread.....thanks guys.Phill,would you have a photo(s) of the old car park on lower briggate adjoining the rail line and (as I thought I remembered) arches.It was always fascinating for me as what was a relatively small entrance on Briggate opened out into a huge car park where i squat my car many a time in the 70/80's.What formerly occupied this site too ? thanks in anticipation..........

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Tue 15 May, 2012 8:14 pm

somme1916 wrote: Phill_dvsn wrote: I don't think you can get a better photo than this, it shows the viaduct during demohttp://tinyurl.com/cx9tl96The tower on the left still survives. I guess they chose to keep that one as the good stonework side faces onto the main road. Some great photos and knowledge shared on this thread.....thanks guys.Phill,would you have a photo(s) of the old car park on lower briggate adjoining the rail line and (as I thought I remembered) arches.It was always fascinating for me as what was a relatively small entrance on Briggate opened out into a huge car park where i squat my car many a time in the 70/80's.What formerly occupied this site too ? thanks in anticipation.......... I had to scratch my head and think of which car park you meant. I seem to remember this being a rather desperate parking spot in days gone byhttp://g.co/maps/p3cpgIt was a rain filled pot holed affair very similar to the one near the bus station. Is that the one you mean? I remember passing over it many times on the train, I don't have a photo, or can't say I've seen one on the internet sadly.

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Tue 15 May, 2012 8:17 pm

Having said that I've just nipped back in the time machine and got you this one

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Tue 15 May, 2012 8:20 pm

And going back a bit further in time to get this to clarify the position of the three lifting towers

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Tue 15 May, 2012 8:56 pm

Phill_dvsn wrote: somme1916 wrote: Phill_dvsn wrote: I don't think you can get a better photo than this, it shows the viaduct during demohttp://tinyurl.com/cx9tl96 Some great photos and knowledge shared on this thread.....thanks guys.Phill,would you have a photo(s) of the old car park on lower briggate adjoining the rail line and (as I thought I remembered) arches.It was always fascinating for me as what was a relatively small entrance on Briggate opened out into a huge car park where i squat my car many a time in the 70/80's.What formerly occupied this site too ? thanks in anticipation.......... I had to scratch my head and think of which car park you meant. I seem to remember this being a rather desperate parking spot in days gone byhttp://g.co/maps/p3cpgIt was a rain filled pot holed affair very similar to the one near the bus station. Is that the one you mean? I remember passing over it many times on the train, I don't have a photo, or can't say I've seen one on the internet sadly. That's about it Phill,your view shows approx entrance from the left.It's a shame no photos exist(?) of just how it was back then 'cos I would hazard a guess it was one of the last,big surviving areas of open land prior to re-development.Was capable of parking several hundred cars on the site(old NCP site).Was a bit dodgy underfoot in the wet !

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Tue 15 May, 2012 9:06 pm

somme1916 wrote: It's a shame no photos exist(?) of just how it was back then 'cos I would hazard a guess it was one of the last,big surviving areas of open land prior to re-development. How about this one?

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Tue 15 May, 2012 9:17 pm

Phill_dvsn wrote: somme1916 wrote: It's a shame no photos exist(?) of just how it was back then 'cos I would hazard a guess it was one of the last,big surviving areas of open land prior to re-development. How about this one? That ain't too bad at all ! As you can see,it was indeed a big open space.I "lost" my car in there a few times but daren't admit where I'd been........

pablo leeds · Post by **pablo leeds** » Tue 15 May, 2012 10:57 pm

ah so that car park is next to where Mission, The Shed and Cockpit bars are now. massive void area as you say.what year is the colour one roughly Phill?