Donald Neilson The Black Panther.

[Bellman]

Although Donald Neilson supposed to have entered about 400 houses with a brace and bit i cannot find any actual proof of this. Of course theres stories of this that are vague. My belief is that he probably broke into more than houses and post offices and started off with a partner in crime. Neilson did get caught shopbreaking when he was 11 years old.I do know that from about 1967 Neilson is supposed to have started breaking into post offices (some say earlier) Neilson said his first post office break in was Barnsley 1971? Neilsons main modus operandi as we know was the brace and bit, but so were other burglars of those days. I dont think we shall ever know the full truth. Although Neilson was happy to talk (even bragg) he was carefull not to tell the complete truth. This was possibly because he thought one day they would let him out of prison. He deserved to die in prison for the death of Leslie Whittle alone, he was responsible for what happened to leslie 100%. And not to mention the other murders.Last but not least is Irene Neilson the wife. She was involved to some extent but what extent? Dont be fooled, she probably was the one who got the most benefit from the whole series of events.

[jetwalking]

Hi - this is tricky because retired police officers are still governed under The Official Secrets Act. If it was me I would go straight for the jugular and make an approach to NARPO. National Association Of Retired Police Officers.I would ask them to contact/ put out information for former officers to contact you.This was the most wanted man in Britain in the 70's. Below are the two 'high profile' Detectives who handled the confession. DCS Harold Wright, head of Staffordshire CID, and Commander Morrison of Scotland Yard, with the statement handwritten by DCI Walter BorehamYou can also get the names of the arresting officers from Wikipedia.In addition I would contact the Crime Correspondent's of the local newspapers who covered the case. They might be able to throw some light on his criminality with regard to his Burglaries and or pass you on to some former police officers.Last but not least, I would try a direct approach to the Police Force Training School that handled Neilson at the time of your interest- i.e. the force where he first came to light. Try and get an appointment in person to discuss the matter - If you can get them initially interested and you can prove that your intentions are all above board- you may be surprised at just how far they will go to help you. In fact re-reading this I would try The Force Training School angle first. They are in a position to drag up old cases which are used as training tools for students and in addition to knowing the answers to your questions- they will have the instant authority to release it to you or not.They are my initial thoughts; hope it helpsAndy

[Bellman]

Thanks for this great info jetwalking i will try acting on it. Trouble is with Neilson he was supposed to be not known by name until he was caught in Mansfield. I suppose it would be a case of individual officers having put together 2+2 years later. I think because he was convicted of 10 serious crimes 4+ being murders certain other crimes will have been lost in time. Also enough money had been spent already.Possibly a coinsidence but my dad remembers a post office in Lincolnshire was burgled where the Modus Operandi would have fitted Neilson (he was noted as being active at the time) This has never been connected to him in records. This may be because at that time information between forces was almost non existent. However the Post Office did keep their own records.Neilson was a copycat criminal thats a fact. The post office did at one time think the same person was responsible for around 200 sub post office burglarys but narrowed this down. My point is perhaps he just started copying others with the same MO? Or perhaps he even had a mentor who was established in crime.Im sure if any ex police officers would like to voice an opinion about Neilson it would be exceptable as others have done before on various interviews.

[jetwalking]

Hello again Bellmanjust thinking a little bit more about your problem.The problem, as I'm sure that you are aware, is that most police forces worked on paper files during the time that you are interested in. Most of the material will have gone- been converted to computer files and most probably have been weeded at source - although a high profile case like this would probably have been preserved.The above is why it could be so important for you to try and talk face to face with actual retired officers- it will have been a major impact within their service and they will tell you their theories. The other problem that you face - is that you are talking about suspicion- you are talking about intelligence material collated by the police. The latter may be difficult to present with provenance in mind. I think that one of your most relevant searches could begin with West Yorkshire Police as Neilson turned from a paid job in Bradford to crime there.Wikipedia clearly documents that he was doing loads of Burglaries and changing his m/o weekly. Contact them and get their source for a launch point as well. Perhaps ring Bradford Police - they used to keep a museum within the police station- don't know if they still do.Other thoughts are: what about going down the line of the Prisons. He will have been interviewed and analysed till the cows come home. So what about getting in touch with an association of Prison Psychiatrists?They will have wanted to know from the man himself and will have spent great lengths of time trying to learn from him. Their findings will be documented.There is also a Police Museum at Ripon - I thinkAnother angle is if New Scotland Yard was involved they will definitely have a 'black museum' which could be helpful.If you have not done so already- check what media i.e. television has been produced on this subject. Not far down the road i.e. Bradford is the National Film & Media Museum. They live for investigative journalism; so give them a go.Good Luck Andy

[Bellman]

Thanks yet again Andy for taking the time and listing some great pointers. I have learned that police had a system where convicted prisoners could admit to their previous crimes. Police would visit the prisoner on the context He/she could wipe their slate clean and not be charged on release. This was of course to make the detection rates look good on paper. Im not sure but this was possibly an unofficial practice. Perhaps this is why we hear Neilson commited at least another 400 burglarys. Im not sure any record of this would be kept or be easily accessible. Problem is if Neilson thought this would have helped him to be eventually released that just would have never happened, not alive anyway.

[jetwalking]

That's no problem Bellman- happy to help.The system that you refer to of 'writing crimes off' was known as TIC's or Taken Into Consideration.The practice was official, was national and was documented and went through the courts - but was massively abused (as you highlight). In fact in the mid 90's particularly in the West Midlands Force it became the subject of a massive investigation and tighter controls were put in place.After a suspect was found guilty at court- the prosecution - which in magistrates courts would invaribly be a police officer would also advise the court that the prisoner had also e.g. 23 other 'like' offences to be taken into consideration- and the magistrate or judge would take a bearing on that when sentencing. A suspect could either have TIC's put to him after charge and before conviction; or as you describe- be visited in prison after conviction and sign TIC'S. From memory I think that the TIC's would also show on his 'Previous Convictions' history for life.You are right that prisoners did admit to many TIC's that they probably ever didn't have anything to do with- I am glad to say that I never had anything to do with TIC's (and that's another reason why I sleep soundly in bed at night).I cannot believe that Nielson went from nothing i.e. no record straight to murder.So again it could be very significant that he has a massive history of burglary.It is a well known fact that in a lot of cases of killers- house burglary can be a pre-cursor to sexual assaults with the level of aggression and seriousness escalating over time.One scenario run like this: someone breaks into houses to steal property. On one occasion as they are in the house the occupant is asleep. The burglar only has a look at the occupant. Progressivley over time and many burglaries later that can go from a look to a touch and so forth - then a situation of excitement, power and control escalates........... and you know the outcome.The carrot for Neilson was to co operate did him no harm - and in his own eyes would be a possible bargaining chip for many years down the line to say that he had co operated from the beginning, thus enhancing his release chances.If you are trying to advance a theory - backed up with anecdotal evidence from retired officers and possibly supported by documentary evidence- with patience and much persistence I think that you could do it.If you are relying on proving the fact that he committed x number of burglaries etc and providing solid documentary evidence to support - I think that you could be an undertaking that could involve years of research.The fact that the confession was taken by New Scotland Yard detectives is very significant. I am not au fait with every detail of the Neilson case- and I don't know if he committed offences in their areas. What I do know is that tremendous pressure will have been on the government of the day to get results. New Scotland Yard will see every other provincial force as 'bumkins'. They will have been 'satisfied' with a capture and confession and the other lesser offences may have been just 'written off'. If they handled affairs after capture the hosting force could have been treated as merely spectators.The more you learn - the more the fog descends?? Be persistent, methodical and don't be put off.Good luck. Get back to me if you need anything. regards Andy    

[Chrism]

Also TIC's have/had to be a lesser or similar crime to be TIC'd.ie. You can't knick a car and then have two murders TIC'd.

[Chrism]

Well I never knew he'd died. Must of missed that one.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-16242235Scroll down the page and there links to other Neilson stuff.    

[Chrism]

The DVD version of the Neilson movie is coming out in May this year. I think I still have the VHS copy somewhere.Or you can watch the movie on YouTubePart 1http://youtu.be/F2MKXM83W5MPart 2http://youtu.be/T9nAW7JUd30Part 3http://youtu.be/H7_zGiQtV9EPart 4http://youtu.be/B-vdt7yKGxsPart 5http://youtu.be/rRVn14MPlhYPart 6http://youtu.be/ngBlH_ShjJAPart 7http://youtu.be/gBTnWWdgi1w

[Bellman]

Neilson did try to lessen the blow when he was caught. He will have planned his defence to a certain extent before he was caught. Some may have a go at me for saying this but i think his wife Irene was covered by this plan. Im sorry but i just cannot believe she didnt know more than she let on. People like psychiatrist Dr Milne who spent many hours with Donald Neilson seemed to have been fooled by him. Do they really think he was being completely genuine in his massive soft story. Neilson was only conning himself though, someone in his position had to be kept in prison.