Oldest route number still in use ...

[tyke bhoy]

D. A. Young wrote: First's network web-site map shows a 63A service still doing so. But I can find no reference to it in First's timetables, unless it's now in the hands of another operator, and I don't know when First's bus service (ex Leeds PTE, ex Leeds City transport, ex tram) was cut back so brutally-unless it's now in the hands of another operator. First Bus in Leeds somewhat decimated their services about a year ago. I don't know whether it was cause, effect or coincidence but around the same time Centrebus (who were already running the 757 Leeds - Airport service and were established in the East Midlands at least) rapidly expanded including some route share arrangements which see Centrebus taking over the evening shift after First have done the day shift. The 63A is one of the services that Centrebus now exclusively run (Timetable @ http://www.wymetro.com/NR/rdonlyres/53A ... etable.pdf ). While it covers the whole of West Yorkshire, Metro http://www.wymetro.com/BusTravel/bustimetables is probably a better source for timetables as they must approve any changes and are usually more up to date than individual operators websites.Metro must also sanction any operator of a PSV in W Yorkshire Http://www.wymetro.com/BusTravel/LocalB ... ss.pdf.pdf . Centrebus in W Yorks also operate predominantly out of Kirklees and into Wakefield but they Geldards and until recently and very briefly Yorkshire Line ran services that would be considered solely Leeds services on top of First. With the exception of the Sightseeing service all the other operators on that list either don't touch Leeds or only run services in Leeds that pass through from the area where the operators base/bases is/are.Incidentally on old route numbers Arriva briefly resurrected the 20 route in Leeds probably just over 5 years ago. It started at Wakefield bus station ran out on Leeds Road to Outwood then diverted via Outwood (Rail) Station along Lingwell Gate Lane to Thorpe then via Middleton Lane, Park Ave and Park Road to Dewsbury Road and then on as per the old route via Moortown to Roundhay Park. I don't know whether the service was abandoned due to lack of passengers or the fact that part of Lingwell Gate Lane is unsuitable for large vehicles as even cars occasionally struggle to pass each other due to the narrowness of even the one designated passing place

[BLAKEY]

tyke bhoy wrote: Incidentally on old route numbers Arriva briefly resurrected the 20 route in Leeds probably just over 5 years ago. It started at Wakefield bus station ran out on Leeds Road to Outwood then diverted via Outwood (Rail) Station along Lingwell Gate Lane to Thorpe then via Middleton Lane, Park Ave and Park Road to Dewsbury Road and then on as per the old route via Moortown to Roundhay Park. I don't know whether the service was abandoned due to lack of passengers or the fact that part of Lingwell Gate Lane is unsuitable for large vehicles as even cars occasionally struggle to pass each other due to the narrowness of even the one designated passing place Time is deceptive tyke bhoy - I was involved in this just before I retired from Arriva in May 2001, and it was about a year before that when Arriva bought out what was then K Line. K Line were operating their versions of Leeds 20/21 involving running from Wakefield via circuitous minor roads, Outwood, Middleton etc before jumping on the Roundhay/Moortown bandwagon so to speak. Also involved was a separate K Line service to Morley via Domestic Street etc which we took too. Being a Leeds resident and a former driver on routes here it was quite poignant for me - I'd certainly never expected to issue a bus ticket in New Briggate or on Street Lane again as I approached retirement and being based at Pontefract Depot !! For an enthusiast yet another incredible treat was in store as a result of this takeover of K Line - while I was helping out at Selby Depot, which I often willingly did, another new variation of vehicles - quite a rare one - appeared there in the form of a 7'6" wide narrow Dennis Dart with Plaxton bodywork - I was very pleased to drive this fine little vehicle around Selby one afternoon.    

[D A Young]

Blakey, you are right-I got my Fleece confused with my Old Ball. My apologies. Thanks also to others who have commented concerning this thread-interesting and nostalgic for me, who in the last few years has seen my formerly local ex-LCT routes 34 and 35 seemingly bite the dust but my formerly local ex-West Yorkshire 36 route (another long-established route number from pre-world War Two days) go from strength to strength.The present deckers in use on the 36 for the last decade or so are a far cry from the pre-war and immediate post-war Bristol K deckers or even the Bristol L single deckers used in the late 40s and early 50s, though of the latter there'd be an occasional one show up in coach livery and coach seating, sometimes even a United rather than a West Yorkshire version. A. D. Young

[BLAKEY]

D. A. Young wrote: Thanks also to others who have commented concerning this thread-interesting and nostalgic for me, who in the last few years has seen my formerly local ex-LCT routes 34 and 35 seemingly bite the dust but my formerly local ex-West Yorkshire 36 route (another long-established route number from pre-world War Two days) go from strength to strength. Youwould be fascinated by the recent development on the Scott Hall Road routes - these have all now been renumbered as 7, 7A, 7S etc (another incomprehensible and flippant "marketing" move) and are to be operated by new hybrid diesel/electric buses, six of which are already in service and there will be twenty two by the end of the Summer. They are fascinating machines but sadly, although quiet in Town, they seem to have developed a really nasty metallic "bang" as the machinery engages at stops prior to moving off - hopefully this can be rectified."sometimes even a United rather than a West Yorkshire version."     Very interestingly, in National Bus Company days, There was only one United vehicle on the service, West Yorkshire having the majority mileage, and United seemed always to allocate one particular vehicle to this duty - among the later ones was a Bristol RELL6G/ECW (but of course) number 4187, THN 687 F. Do you also remember that most fascinating of peak hour duplicates - the East Yorkshire Bridlington "car" which, in its layover time, operated in front of the 5.15pm to Ripon with a West Yorkshire conductor and a cardboard label in the windscreen declaring "ALWOODLEY X ROADS."I bet that went down like the proverbial lead balloon with the East Yorkshire drivers !!A. D. Young

[D A Young]

The recent Scott Hall Road bus route re-numberings sound strange to one long familiar with the 1937 route numbers and their long-lived successors, but I wonder how many of the people the buses serve really are concerned one way or the other, as long as they come and go as advertised, sun or rain, snow or ice-the best PR by far for any public transport.I've travelled much of the world looking for transport curiosities, survivals, anomalies etc, but the single East Yorkshire Alwoodley Cross Roads duplicate bus on West Yorkshire's 36 Leeds-Moortown-Alwoodley, Harewood-Harrogate-Ripon route is one I never saw, because I never knew about it, an omission made all the more egregious because it apparently served the end of my street at a time of day I was customarily using the 36 service for transport.A real bit of Secret Leeds. I wonder if anyone photographed it?And does anyone know when West Yorkshire actually numbered the service 36? Must have been in the early 1930s, when the old bible flip-over destination displays were first introduced. There was a short period, perhaps it was after WY was absorbed by the PTE in the late 80s, when the route number got a prefix (was it in the 600 or 700 series?) but it went back to 36 when Harrogate and District took over.I've often wondered if Leeds City Transport numbered their Alwoodley circulars 34 and 35 because West Yorkshire's 36 service already served the same area between Moortown and Alwoodley cross roads.And on the subject of Limited Stop, West Yorkshire buses were subject to Limited Stop regulations on Chapeltown and Harrogate Roads throughout the day I believe,(the LCT 34 and 35 along Scott Hall road only during the evening peak) plus protective fare rates imposed by Leeds Corporation to protect their local trams and buses from WY competition. So on the 36 for example, you couldn't get off until Moortown corner on buses leaving Leeds, though the bus would pick you up at specific WY bus stops en route, of which the one at Stainbeck Lane seemed to get the most use. If you were travelling out to Alwoodley from Leeds, the WY 36 was the better bet-every 15 minutes as opposed to every 30 on the LCT Alwoodley circulars and a direct route via Chapeltown and Harrogate Road rather than the LCT 34/35 buses via Sheepscar Street, Scott Hall Road and Street Lane West. The WY 36 was also a faster service by several minutes since there were no intermediate stops to set down passengers and very few passengers to pick up.But WY buses weren't as comfortable as the Leeds buses, especially if it was a lowbridge Bristol K, or one of the flimsily-built Lodekkas or REs that succeeded them. And with their manual gearboxes, (not on the later REs) the drivers clearly had to work harder than the Leeds drivers with epicyclic gears in their buses.Just occasionally though a WY dual-purpose bus with coach seats or even a full-blown WY coach would turn up-a real pleasure.Much the most interesting way to go from town to Alwoodley was to ride the No 2 tram to Moortown corner, or the 3 circular (3 after September 1957) via Roundhay to Moortown corner, then pick up a WY bus at Moortown for the rest of the trip. Once the trams quit on the 3 in March 1959, my preference lay with LCT because they honoured the half-fare student bus pass for a year longer than did WY and the seats on the usual buses used (Roe-bodied Regent 3s built between 1947 and 1952, before the lightweight craze in bus bodies and bus seats) were more comfortable than on Eastern Coach Work-bodied Bristol buses of any type.I was not familiar with conditions on Kirkstall, Roundhay and York Roads, but surely similar conditions must have been imposed on WY buses there too? On Otley Road, I think it was limited stop out to West Park (Spen Lane or Ring Road?), but I never rode WY out to there if I could help it-I'd ride the tram or a Sammy Ledgard blue busA. D. Young

[BLAKEY]

D. A. Young wrote: I was not familiar with conditions on Kirkstall, Roundhay and York Roads, but surely similar conditions must have been imposed on WY buses there too? On Otley Road, I think it was limited stop out to West Park (Spen Lane or Ring Road?), but I never rode WY out to there if I could help it-I'd ride the tram or a Sammy Ledgard blue busA. D. Young I can't speak for Roundhay and York Roads, but I had long experience of working on Otley Road and Kirkstall Road for Samuel Ledgard. On both those routes there was no physical "limited stop" restriction on short distance passengers, but the alternative measure of restrictive fares applied whereby anyone wishing to use SL or WYRCC buses within the LCT operating areas could do so, but had to pay quite heavily for the privilege - and quite a goodly number did so. The relationship between SL and WYRCC differed slightly on the two roads. The Leeds - Otley - Ilkley and Leeds - West Park - Rawdon services were operated jointly between the two companies (with SL having the greater mileage share in both cases) whereas on Kirkstall Road both undertakings operated entirely separately. I know this is just slightly off topic but I find fares and mileage structures to be a fascinating subject too.

[Terry M]

Something else which has come back to me is that service 72 between Stanningley Bottom and Leeds Bus Stn worked on a higher fare table than other routes on the same road.This might have been because the route was worked jointly with Bradford City Transport.