Coal Mining in East Leeds

[The Parksider]

chameleon wrote: I think it is the best we've found upto now. I can rescan and save in a more usable format if you wish. That would be great. I'm thinking of having the Leodis photos of the site drawn - does that negate copyright I wonder???Anyway my latest conundrum is with the dam and leat constructed by Mathers in 1577. I'm sure it never came from the dam or went to the Foundry Mill at all, yet according to OS maps it probably came from the beck at easterly road where a weir is marked, and it made it as far as Foxwood.So my theory - for anyone especially GT - to shoot down could be that the new mill Mathers built (maybe with stone from the old bloomeries on the beck) was powered by a wheel fed from the leat from behind the mill. This would enable the wheel to be fed from above rather than below and provide the enccessary extra power for a blast furnace which was a new technology at the time.You can see I've been doing my research.If this was in any way feasible then remains in the beck could be very early indeed...

[chameleon]

The Parksider wrote: chameleon wrote: I think it is the best we've found upto now. I can rescan and save in a more usable format if you wish. That would be great. I'm thinking of having the Leodis photos of the site drawn - does that negate copyright I wonder???Anyway my latest conundrum is with the dam and leat constructed by Mathers in 1577. I'm sure it never came from the dam or went to the Foundry Mill at all, yet according to OS maps it probably came from the beck at easterly road where a weir is marked, and it made it as far as Foxwood.So my theory - for anyone especially GT - to shoot down could be that the new mill Mathers built (maybe with stone from the old bloomeries on the beck) was powered by a wheel fed from the leat from behind the mill. This would enable the wheel to be fed from above rather than below and provide the enccessary extra power for a blast furnace which was a new technology at the time.You can see I've been doing my research.If this was in any way feasible then remains in the beck could be very early indeed... Quick comments '-I'm convinced the leat never progressed beyond the farm. No map shows it and head would be minimal; pumping would use energy which could perhaps have ben used more directly nearer to the works?Copyright: Leodis has private works where copyright is clearly noted, the rest is I think mostly public archive. Munki obtained an assurance early in the life of SL that free use of images for SL was agreed.

[The Parksider]

chameleon wrote: I'm convinced the leat never progressed beyond the farm. No map shows it and head would be minimal; pumping would use energy which could perhaps have been used more directly nearer to the works? I take your points entirely.They lead me to think that it's OK there being an initial report that Mathers had permission to build a dam and a leat to his new mill", but wether he did do that and wether it was effective is completely another matter.He could I suppose have set a team on digging a great big leat - a "goit" even and at some point calculations could have said "give it up Chris it ain't gonna work"Then he could easily have just put in place the weir and walling we see in the beck, leaving the half dug leat to bamboozle us!!!Trouble is what does one then write about such events!!

[grumpytramp]

Well done Parkie for taking on the task of collating the elements of this thread that connect to the Wyke Beck, iron production and the Foundry Mill. Now I have been snowed in yet again yesterday (to be expected in the Ochils in January and February .......... but already seven days in November and December !?!) which is just as well as I am recovering from an horrible dose of flu; so have been rereading the thread, the sources and Parkie's most recent commentary with a fan heater for company.I would suggest it’s time to reflect, and reflect with care, at the evidence that has been collectively uncovered. My conclusions on reviewing all of this today, is that my own narrative will probably be at odds with some of Parkies.So I had better explain.Medieval iron bloomeries existed somewhere in the Wyke Beck valley from at least the 12th and 13th Century and that the productivity of these bloomeries was sufficiently high as to imply that water power was utilised [rather than re-quote everything see my post of the 3rd April 2010]I would suggest that the local geology would have encouraged probably two centres of activity; one about Boggart Hill and the other in the area about Foxwood (and therefore co-incident with the area known as Cynder Hills)I suspect that the once profitable iron workings and associated bloomeries in the Wyke Beck valley were in terminal decline by some indeterminate time in the sixteenth century as the easily won ironstone was wrought out and as Roundhay/Seacroft became less able to provide sufficient charcoal. In support of this statement I refer to a recently acquired a copy of Steven Burt’s excellent “An illustrated history of Roundhay Park” where he makes a few useful references:(i) A 1628 Corporation of London survey that ’mines of coal in Roundhay and Roundhay Grange late in the tenure of John Carpenter’ had been worth 6s 8d but are now ‘out of use’(ii) He states “as tree cover was removed, a critical factor became the supply of wood to make charcoal. This is made very clear in the Rental for 1424-25 which states ’there is there a certain iron mine which is worth nothing yearly unless there has been a sale of dry underwood, and if there has the mine is worth 12d weekly and the dead wood for burning weekly 19s’. However the supplies of ironstone were also becoming exhausted and by the sixteenth century production had ceased completely”Fast forward to 1725 when we understand Foundry Mill began producing iron and the world had changed. Abraham Derby had revolutionised iron production using coke, the world was waking up to the manufacturing revolution, great engineers such as the brilliant Thomas Newcomen were devising great machinery and the attendant demand for energy had began to be fuelled by the rapidly expanding West Yorkshire coal mining industry.I suspect that that the iron works at Foundry Mill was a speculative venture taking advantage of the locations happy advantages:(i) Presumably an existing corn mill with attendant basic power facilities(ii) Plentiful supply of locally won coals (Better Bed, Beeston, Middleton Main and Middleton Little) ........ great quality coals but not necessarily perfect for coking(iii) Mining technology allowed deeper deposits of Black Band Ironstone to be won(iv) Water supply supplemented by drainage from local colliery workings and an intercepting leat capturing drainage to the Wyke Beck valley(v) Excellent trading location adjacent to the “York Road” for both Leeds and other marketsIt subsequently benefits from the attention from the genius of Smeaton before failing sometime in the late eighteenth century. We know that when it is advertised for sale in 1822 it is referred to as a Corn Mill.

[grumpytramp]

So that leaves the question of the much discussed Grant to Christopher MatherI believe that there is no doubt the leat was constructed and that this now forms the current alignment of Wyke Beck between Easterly Road and BrooklandsHere I am able via a rather circuitous route to thank one J W Morkill who gives some really useful information contained in his paper “Manor and Park of Roundhay” [Thoresby Society, Miscellanea Vol 2, Part III]. He notes that in 1603 the estate of Seacroft was granted by James I to Charles, Earl of Devon at an annual rent of 25s. Seacroft is described in the grant as Quote: all that our Manor or Farm of Seacroft within the lordship of Roundhaye, in our county of York, with all its rights, &c. And also all mines of coal lying and being within the wastes of the Lord the King of Wynmore. And also two Water Mills under one roof in Seacroft , in the said county of York, with the Pools, Rivers, Wears, Vivares and Watercourses to the same belonging now or late in the tenure or occupation of Christopher Mather or his assigns, being parcel of the possessions of our Duchy of Lancaster. Dated 28th February, 1 James I Note no reference is made to iron in either the context of minerals (mines) or the water mills. I content to accept that Mather’s Mills were traditional grinding mills. What is really interesting is the description in the grant two Water Mills under one roof in SeacroftSo time to go back to the source of the much reported 1577 grant of Elizabeth I to Christopher Mather to dam the Wyke Beck, and once again thanks to J W Morkill for transcribing the grant. I will try to transcribe the ‘ye olde english’ as best I can: Quote: To all trewe Christian people unto whom is present Wrytinge indented shall come John Darcye Knight Lord Darcye of Aston sendeth greeting in our Lord God everlasting. Whereas Chrofer Mather of Seacrofte in the Countye of Yorke Gentleman haith before this tyme by licence and sufferance of the said Lord Dacrye made one Wear or Dammme overthwarte the Becke or water of Roundhaie in the said Countye at the upper end of a little Close called the Ellers in Roundhaie aforsiad nowe in th’occopation of Isabell West Widowe parcel of th’enheritance of the said Lord Darcye. And Whereas the Chrofer haith also made one Diche through said Close and through one corner of another Close in the tenure of Willm Kitchenman beinge likelwise the’inheritance of the said Lord Darcye by means of which said Weare and Diche the said Chrofer haith estopped the said water from his ould accustomed course and haith made the same to have his course from the said Weare or Dame through the said Diche into the Queens Ma Wodde called Wodhall Carre and so frome thence into a Water Milne latelie builded by said Chrofer upon her Highne’s demaines of Seacrofte aforesaid ......... et al! The charter goes on in the ye olde fashion effectively giving Mather servitude rights of access to maintain the leats: Quote: with free egresse and regresse with Carte Waine Horse and other necessaries to and frome said Damme Watercourse and Closes to amende repaire and uphold said Wear and Watercourse when and as often as need shall require and for doinge aniw other worke necessarie for the conveyance of and bringing of the said water to the said Milne in Seacrofte aforesaid There is clearly no possibility that Mather’s mill referred to in these grants can be Foundry Mill (unless water can flow uphill) and we have already identified the leat that supplied Foundry Mill. Now for a bit of supposition. I have had a careful look at the 0S 1:10,560 (1854) and 1:2500 (1893) at old-maps.co.uk. There are a number of weirs in the vicinity of Asket Hill and Eastfield (I suspect most are Victorian folly) but one particularly catches my eye. It sits immediately downstream of the confluence of Wyke Beck and the beck running from Roundhay Grange. The current course of the conjoined Wyke Beck follows the clearly engineered straight banked alignment, but look very carefully at the 1893 1:2500 sheet and you will see that there is a flow over the weir following the natural alignment of the beck and a leat leading to the current alignment of the Wyke Beck. The same map shows that the water flowing in the original course was at the confluence of Bailey’s Rein directed to the current alignmentMy hypothesis is that Christopher Mather constructed a dam that captured a large volume of the flow of the Wyke Beck and directed it in a purpose constructed leat towards a mill located at its end (to the immediate east of Low Gipton). I suspect that his two Water Mills under one roof in Seacroft was actually achieved by using the remaining water running in the original course of the Wyke Beck supplemented by the flow of Bailey Rein to operate a separate water-wheel driven mill in the same milling complex.

[grumpytramp]

A wee sketch to illustrate

[Leodian]

Apologies that this may have little direct to do with coal mining in East Leeds but in view of the mentions of iron in the thread I thought it might be of interest. In the early to mid 1950s I used to walk on a track (? called Black Road) that went to part of Halton Moor on the way to Templenewsam. At one point there was a spring that always ran strongly and was very heavily iron stained. Though told not to drink it I (and the other lads) always had a drink of it. There were some less active springs that ran iron stained in the fields nearby. I've never been in the area since then, so I don't know if the iron laden springs are still active.

[chameleon]

Leodian wrote: Apologies that this may have little direct to do with coal mining in East Leeds but in view of the mentions of iron in the thread I thought it might be of interest. In the early to mid 1950s I used to walk on a track (? called Black Road) that went to part of Halton Moor on the way to Templenewsam. At one point there was a spring that always ran strongly and was very heavily iron stained. Though told not to drink it I (and the other lads) always had a drink of it. There were some less active springs that ran iron stained in the fields nearby. I've never been in the area since then, so I don't know if the iron laden springs are still active. Can you relate the 'road' to todays landmarks Leodian? I don't recall anything known as that.

[Leodian]

chameleon wrote: Leodian wrote: Apologies that this may have little direct to do with coal mining in East Leeds but in view of the mentions of iron in the thread I thought it might be of interest. In the early to mid 1950s I used to walk on a track (? called Black Road) that went to part of Halton Moor on the way to Templenewsam. At one point there was a spring that always ran strongly and was very heavily iron stained. Though told not to drink it I (and the other lads) always had a drink of it. There were some less active springs that ran iron stained in the fields nearby. I've never been in the area since then, so I don't know if the iron laden springs are still active. Can you relate the 'road' to todays landmarks Leodian? I don't recall anything known as that. Hi chameleonThere was a short bit of road (Halton Moor Road) from the bottom of Osmondthorpe Lane that runs to Halton Moor Avenue. From about where it met Halton Moor Avenue a rough track came off. Walking on that soon led to crossing over Wykebeck and the track continued to reach houses in Halton Moor. The iron spring was (may still be!) reached a short way after crossing the beck but before reaching the houses. The less active iron springs were in a field on the right (walking to Halton Moor) with Skelton Grange Power Station further away.I'm very unsure if the track was known as Black Road (there was a Red Road that I think, but am very unsure, continued as the Black Road track). Someone in SL will no doubt know.I hope this is of some help.

[chameleon]

Somewhere near here?