Have Our Transport Planners Lost the Plot? (If indeed they ever found one)

[tyke bhoy]

Not sure whether this should have gone in General Chat or Transport but I think we do need a discussion on the transport (lack of) policy and maybe some of our thoughts will make it to the wider audience of the YEP Joined up thinking on transport policy? I think not.Some may already be aware that I recently had a rant about the roadworks on Bishopgate Street at its junction with City Square which will result in the previous 3 lanes being reduced to just the two that the roadworks have already reduced it to http://www.secretleeds.co.uk/forum/Mess ... Message=25 . This results in the morning rush hour of virtually no traffic advancing from the lights at the end of Neville Street on every alternate green cycle and no traffic advancing on the loop from Swinegate into Bishopgate Street on every alternate green cycle of the lights outside the Scarborough because the previous cycle on the other inlet has been held up by the red light at City Square and there is now no spare capacity as two lanes are now feeding into two instead of three. It took 5 minutes this morning for the bus I was on to travel from Bridgewater Place to the station Bus Stop on Bishopgate Street and the Uni’s haven’t gone back yet let alone the build up in Christmas shopping. The answer is supposedly to find another route into Leeds which is no good for Buses and as I have discussed on the other thread little use to private vehicles or to use Public Transport.Now I note that while it will have no effect on the above it looks like the powers that be are going to force more cars onto the already overly congested A660 and passengers onto its crowded buses by reducing the frequency of trains stopping at Headingley and Burley Park stations. Ironically they wish to increase the frequency of trains on the route but reduce the frequency of stops at those station so that they can shave a <sarcasm alert> massive 7 minutes off the journey time from Harrogate and its satellite stations into Leeds. http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/localnew ... 6498653.jp I have no idea how many people commute by car from Harrogate to Central Leeds on a daily basis but, and not wishing to be overly stereotypical, I don’t think most of them will be the type of people who would be the sort to be tempted onto public transport let alone by a paltry 7 minute reduction in the journey time. I do however occasionally travel out to Headingley station in the evening rush hour and do know the trains are packed with commuters who either do make the choice of train over car or have no car so little/no choice and get off at Burley Park and Headingley Stations

[Keg]

As a loiner all my life, I am proud of Leeds but the transport policy has been a shambles for years.The original bus lanes stuffed up the A660 & the A65, reducing capacity andincreasing congestion to save a few minutes. The train system is at capacity with no new stations in recent years.Combine this with the overall reduction in the cost of buying and running a car ( most 17-19 year olds can and do run a small cheap pug106, fiesta etc which is more than me or my mates could do at the same age - i am now 43!) and you have the issues we are up against.Added into this is the huge increase in the student population over the last few years and their cars as well.We seem to be scared of changing the face of the city, i.e we need to start building new roads and widening current roads. If this means moving a wall an demolishing some trees then lets do it. Supertram is a white elephant, it will not create job other than ofr tram drivers and maintainance workers.If we are a 21st century then lets have some 21st century thinking

[Riponian]

By Headingley, let alone Burley Park, the Harrogate train has become a sardine tin. My complaint is that is when the weather is grotty (snow) then I get the train to Burley Park and walk the last mile and a bit to work, which I'd not be able to do, but trail back up the hill from City station.I can't see how all these students can run cars, they get canned for the insurance, and no wonder they all finish their courses up to their eyeballs in debt.Narrowing the roads in the city centre, especially where I cross the road to change buses in front of the station is a stupid move. I begin to wonder if one of the qualifications for being a traffic planner is not to be a road user of any sort.If about 1/3rd of the crossings were got rid of in the city, as they are in the wrong place or only 50 yards away from another one, it'd improve traffic flow. So what are they doing on Chapeltown Rd? More crossings!Are they just using their budget up for "new construction" so they don't get even bigger cuts next year?By the way, the Armley Road crater now has barriers round it, just no sign of any repairs.

[tyke bhoy]

Riponian, I think it would still be an option you just wouldn’t have as much choice as the number of services stopping at Burley Park would be reduced. However it could end up being reduced to the point where it is closed anyway. The road narrowing in front of the station is by public demand apparently but it was the council that made it hard to cross there in the first place by funnelling all traffic into the massive one way system that is the loop. Gridlocking the loop and its feeder roads to make crossin easier isn’t really the answer but the answer of subway or footbridge was probably too expensive or otherwise unfeasible.

[raveydavey]

tyke bhoy wrote: Riponian, I think it would still be an option you just wouldn’t have as much choice as the number of services stopping at Burley Park would be reduced. However it could end up being reduced to the point where it is closed anyway. The road narrowing in front of the station is by public demand apparently but it was the council that made it hard to cross there in the first place by funnelling all traffic into the massive one way system that is the loop. Gridlocking the loop and its feeder roads to make crossin easier isn’t really the answer but the answer of subway or footbridge was probably too expensive or otherwise unfeasible. Public demand? I'll wager that you can't find one person who was asked to give an opinion on the subject.I've been so incensed with recent "highways improvements" that I sent the following to the YEP (published yesterday):As predicted by many, the narrowing of Bishopgate Street from 3 lanes to 2 lanes where it joins the City Centre Loop to enter City Square is already causing traffic chaos, before the full return to school and restoration of normal traffic levels.Traffic is now tailing back along Neville Street, past Bridgewater Place, past Bewleys Hotel and virtually to the M621 already. That is over a kilometre of two lanes of nose to tail, stop start traffic. Along the Loop it is a similar story. The traffic lights are also hopelessly out of synch, with inadequate time on green.Why on earth the Highways Department deemed it necessary to add 18 inches to the pavement outside the station and construct a cycle lane that is virtually wide enough to drive a car down at one of the busiest pinch points in the city centre is beyond me. If the idea is to improve pedestrian access to / from the station, would a better idea not have been to divert people to use New Station Street or the existing Concourse entrance on City Square? Not only would this have avoided the traffic chaos we now have to endure, but it would have been significantly cheaper.A cynic might wonder if congestion is again being deliberately engineered into the road layout to warrant future congestion charging.Surely the role of the council is to keep traffic moving freely. enabling the people of Leeds to get to and from work with the minimum of fuss? Yet I'm struggling to think of a recent highways scheme that has actually improved matters for the average motorist.Tonight it took over 10 minutes to get from Bridgewater Place to City Square at just before 5pm. As has been said it is a bad joke - the timings on the lights outside the Scabby Taps simply don't let enough traffic through and don't appear to be synchronised with the next set at the crossing outside Flares. yet once you get through the deliberately engineered bottle neck things are fine again!

[tyke bhoy]

Ravey from memory it was councilor Carter who stated it was public demand but you are talking to the converted. I was on a bus out of city square at 4.45 today out on Neville Street and can quite see why it would have taken 10 minutes to get from Bridgewater to City Square.I can't quite agree with the light timings as the two sets at the junction of Neville Street/Swinegate/Bishopgate street have an almost permanent green on one of the two thoroughfares. The problem is previously both those two lane inlets fed into a three lane stretch thus providing spare capacity for when the city square lights are red. now one of the two lane inlets is almost perpetually providing traffic to two lanes which only have a green for (probably) just over 50% of the time. I also worry that the grand plan on completion of this junction will include more pedestrian crossing time and therefore less traffic green.I also have to slightly disagree with "the problems end there". Wellington Street and King Street are regularly blocked due to buses running to schedule blocking the traffic lanes to allow passengers on/off due to buses massively ahead of schedule blocking the actual bus stops. This has been exacerbated on King Street by the reduction to two lanes due to the hatching. I saw tonight a backlog on Aire Street and Wellington Street causing a blockage of one of the two lanes out of Bishopgate Street

[raveydavey]

You are quite right about Wellington Street and I can imagine the minute that gets blocked the entire job will be stopped. Fortunately tonight I went up Quebec Street.

[tyke bhoy]

raveydavey wrote: You are quite right about Wellington Street and I can imagine the minute that gets blocked the entire job will be stopped. Fortunately tonight I went up Quebec Street. My point is though that before Quebec Street had two dedicated lanes at the top of Bishopgate Street the middle and outside lane while the inside lane fed the Queens PickUp/Drop Off, Aire Street and Wellington Street. Now that inside lane has gone the new inside lane now serves Quebec Street but also what the old inside lane served. Wellington Street and to a lesser extent Aire Street have a tendency to be blocked for short periods but on a fairly regular basis in the rush hours and as soon as this gets back past the Queens Entrance it will affect the middle lane in City Square which becomes the inside lane of Quebec Street.I may consider changing my preferred route to work because of this. My preferred route is a limited stop bus service that drops me within 5 minute walk of work but I can’t always catch the last one of the morning due to child minding/delivery to school. My alternative is a standard every 10 minute service route which terminates at the bus station. It isn’t much slower into Leeds but the bus station is a 15 minute walk to work. That additional 10 minutes of walking is now spent queuing on Victoria Road/Neville Street.While I am still using the Limited Service though I will regularly update this post with my Neville Street Watch. Time taken from Bridgewater Place to City Square at just before 8.30am (aprrox).9/9/10    7 minutes10/9/10 6 minutes (but then Friday is usually a lighter traffic day) 15/9/10 7 minutes    

[BLAKEY]

I am retired now but still enjoy using public transport frequently. Who on earth has come up with this lunatic idea of eliminating stops at Burley Park and Headingley on the Harrogate Line ?? The Harrogate line is already a criminal shambles at busy times. The overcrowding has long since exceeded what might, by a stretch of the imagination, be termed "safe." I am not a railway engineer, but nobody is going to convince me that the ageing rolling stock is designed to handle perhaps double the intended passenger load in terms of weight - one thinks of axle bearings, couplings, high pressure hydraulic transmission systems, brakes etc etc being pushed to breaking point. - and what if such mechanical abuse should cause a fire in a crammed train ?? Then there is the track - a stretch heading out of the City between the Armley junction and Kirkstall Road viaduct has been in an abominable condition for years (outwards only). For some reason it is not seemingly welded rail and the joints cause awful thudding and lurching especially when the trains are overloaded and particularly the non bogie 4 wheel cars of the class 142 trains. The overcrowding on some of the trains rivals the worst that can be found on the London Underground - another looming safety scandal but that's a different story. I wonder what the safety authorities would say at first hand if they witnessed every stairwell and vestibule crammed to the point where its practically impossible to raise an elbow - and there if you can see them are the pathetic - sarcastic arguably - notices ordering us not to block the doorways etc etc. If the occasional conductor can be bothered to fully use the PA system we may be implored to "take time to familiarise ourselves with the safety notices to be found throughout the train, and to report anything suspicious to the conductor." Many's the time in Leeds I've thrown my train ticket away, as I've not been prepared to attempt to squeeze onto a carriage step even for the seven minute journey to Headingley, and have settled for a bus to Headingley. An additional shambles aggravated by this, although the only danger involved is to the train operator's revenue account, is the total failure to be able to collect intermediate fares - I've advised Northern rail, and Arriva the previous franchise holder, many times that hundreds, yes literally hundreds, of folks are delightedly travelling free daily between, for example, Burley Park, Headingley and Horsforth - and beyond.Can anyone imagine the till operators in supermarkets saying to a large proportion of the customers - "Oh its alright, just take your shopping home" - it beggars belief !!    

[Leodian]

How do the fare dodgers get through the automatic ticket collecting mechanism at Leeds City Station or am I just being very naive in not seeing how they do it? I'm not looking for tips on how to do it as I'm too honest (and probably too scared) to fare dodge.