Police to leave the City Centre

[Si]

iansmithofotley wrote: In my experience, the Police Service are experts in ‘re-inventing the wheel’. No doubt in years to come, we will see a return to proper policing , the abandonment of the present gimmick of ‘neighbourhood policing’, P.C.S.O’s, etc., and proper police officers doing a proper job, patrolling the streets, using their discretion and visibly and practically serving the public, personally, promptly, efficiently and effectively.Ian     Hi Ian. Speaking of re-inventing the wheel, my missus is a domestic violence co-ordinator, and the department has gone through several pointless name changes. Someone (probably fast-tracked and with nothing better to do than justify their new rank) decided that Domestic Violence didn't sound good, so they became the Vulnerable Victim Unit. Someone else decided that the victims of domestic violence shouldn't be called victims for PC reasons, and now they have such a meaningless, forgettable title that I've forgotten it!As you probably know, policing nowadays is all about KPIs (key performance indicators) which is a posh way of referring to the keeping of league tables. Someone who's had one-over-the-eight and is not aggressive, are far more likely to be banged up now (KPI tick) than helped home.On a similar note, the NHS lowered the amount of people who had their operations cancelled on the day, by simply cancelling them the day before.Also, how do the powers-that-be measure the effectiveness of the Fire Service? Are they marked highly because they successfully put out a lot of fires, or because they only extinguished a few due to better fire prevention work?     

[iansmithofotley]

Hi Si,The thing with the police force (and the fire brigade) is that you should get paid, not for 'what you do', but 'what you are expected to do', which, before H.O. Circular 114/83 was introduced (regarding Police efficiency, effectiveness, manpower, etc., etc.), was what happened. In the case of the Police, this is often immeasurable, for example - a bobby walking down a high street, in uniform, with a big hat on, talking to all and sundry but not arresting anyone, reporting anyone or dishing tickets out to anyone, might be regarded as 'non-productive'. Some people might say that he is doing nothing and he has not achieved any target, as there is nothing to count. Some people might call it being lazy. By walking up and down and being there, he might have prevented a crime but nobody will ever know. Some people may feel safer because of his presence.Nobody ever knows whether or not he has prevented a crime by just being there. A friend of mine, John Speed, who joined Leeds City Police on the same day as me in 1965, and did all of his initial training with me, got shot and killed because he was attending a routine call about a suspicious person near to Leeds Parish Church. How do you measure that in relation to targets. The fact is that when you join the police then you accept the risks and you get paid for what 'you are expected to do'. In relation to the Fire brigade, how do you measure their performance? Some people might cynically say that it would depend on how many fires they extinguished. But what if there are no fires? I don't know whether or not they still have them but, years ago, the night shift used to sleep in dormitories and if there was a fire call, they would get out of bed, get dressed, slide down the pole to their appliances and were en route to a fire or accident in a very short time. They might go a whole night, or nights, without getting a call. How do you measure the efficiency and effective of that, irrespective of any training that they might do to keep up their performance and to keep themselves busy.It's only when you see them in action at a large fire, major incident like a plane crash, a car crash, a chemical spillage or chemical fire that you realise what a great job they do. In my experience, out of all the emergency services, the Fire Brigade were the most professional and disciplined organisation that I ever worked with, they made the Police look like amateurs.Some firemen on Fire Prevention duties might go around schools talking to children about fire prevention, or go around giving advice to pensioners and dishing out smoke detectors or carbon monoxide detectors. How do you measure that other then by how much stuff they have distributed, - but they may have prevented some fires or gassing in the future, but we will never know.I was in Bowness a couple of months ago and next to the Marina there was a Fire Engine, with several staff, parked up all day in a prominent position, talking to the public and giving advice and allowing kids to go on the fire engine. It was a nice sunny day and some people might say "how can you justify that" or "how is that value for money". There is no correct answer to it.As I said before, they should get paid for 'what they are expected to do'.Going back to the Police and 'targets' I always found that if the Police 'targetted' one area, one type of crime or offence, or any other thing, all that happened was that you got 'displacement'. The trangressors would just move somewhere else or commit some other type of offence. It was just a waste of time and caused a lot of resentment amongst staff and public alike. The Police are very good at giving the Government what they want even if it is futile.I used to work in the Vice Squad at Chapeltown in the early eighties and one particular year I arrested over two hundred prostitutes, men for indecency and sexual offences, and other people for a variety of offences from woundings to robberies, etc. A traffic cop might report a thousand motorists for speeding in a year along with a whole range of other offences and also deal with accidents and crime. However, in the Fraud Squad, a detective might spend a whole year (or more) working on just one case which might not even go to court (based on a C.P.S. decision). The thing is that in all these cases, Vice Squad, Traffic Department, Fraud Squad or a normal constable patrolling a beat in a division (can you remember those days???), all officers of the same rank and service got the same pay. The same thing applied with operational and office bound staff (still essential in some jobs, e.g. custody suites, control rooms, complaints department, training department, etc.). I know that in more recent years, 'performance enhancement pay' has been introduced which, I understand, is like an annual bonus for doing a 'good' job and for 'keeping out of trouble'. Personally, I think that it is a bad idea and is unfair. In addition, I cynically think that nepotism creeps in.I think that the real answer is with good supervision, good training, and good staff appraisal systems done by trained staff. In my experience, in any job, good supervisors know what their staff are doing. I accept that it is difficult with staff that are bone idle or not doing their jobs properly but good supervisors know who they can rely on, who to watch out for and who needs a helping hand or more training. The responsibility of supervision and its accountability comes with the rank at whatever level. Unfortunately, the government will always want figures to count so I doubt that things will change in the forseeable future.Ian.

[cnosni]

raveydavey wrote: Having reviewed the article, it appears that the proposed location of the new police station is what is currently used as the main matchday car park on Elland Road.Which now begs the question, where are all those football fans going to park now?Even with Leeds languishing in the lower leagues the place is very busy everytime there is a game on and should promotion be achieved, attendance are sure to increase. And that is without the proposed building work at Elland Road adding shops and a hotel as well as increasing the stadium capacity, etc.I despair at the lack of joined up thinking in this city, I really do.Still, at least there will be plenty of people around to dish out parking tickets. Its going to be on the old greyhound stadium

[raveydavey]

cnosni wrote: raveydavey wrote: Having reviewed the article, it appears that the proposed location of the new police station is what is currently used as the main matchday car park on Elland Road.Which now begs the question, where are all those football fans going to park now?Even with Leeds languishing in the lower leagues the place is very busy everytime there is a game on and should promotion be achieved, attendance are sure to increase. And that is without the proposed building work at Elland Road adding shops and a hotel as well as increasing the stadium capacity, etc.I despair at the lack of joined up thinking in this city, I really do.Still, at least there will be plenty of people around to dish out parking tickets. Its going to be on the old greyhound stadium Is it? The photo in the YEP showed the matchday carpark as the site - mind you, it was the YEP...

[tyke bhoy]

What was the greyhound stadium is now part of one of the match day car parks.

[Si]

iansmithofotley wrote: Hi Si,The thing with the police force (and the fire brigade) is that you should get paid, not for 'what you do', but 'what you are expected to do', which, before H.O. Circular 114/83 was introduced (regarding Police efficiency, effectiveness, manpower, etc., etc.), was what happened. In the case of the Police, this is often immeasurable, for example - a bobby walking down a high street, in uniform, with a big hat on, talking to all and sundry but not arresting anyone, reporting anyone or dishing tickets out to anyone, might be regarded as 'non-productive'. Some people might say that he is doing nothing and he has not achieved any target, as there is nothing to count. Some people might call it being lazy. By walking up and down and being there, he might have prevented a crime but nobody will ever know. Some people may feel safer because of his presence.Nobody ever knows whether or not he has prevented a crime by just being there. A friend of mine, John Speed, who joined Leeds City Police on the same day as me in 1965, and did all of his initial training with me, got shot and killed because he was attending a routine call about a suspicious person near to Leeds Parish Church. How do you measure that in relation to targets. The fact is that when you join the police then you accept the risks and you get paid for what 'you are expected to do'. In relation to the Fire brigade, how do you measure their performance? Some people might cynically say that it would depend on how many fires they extinguished. But what if there are no fires? I don't know whether or not they still have them but, years ago, the night shift used to sleep in dormitories and if there was a fire call, they would get out of bed, get dressed, slide down the pole to their appliances and were en route to a fire or accident in a very short time. They might go a whole night, or nights, without getting a call. How do you measure the efficiency and effective of that, irrespective of any training that they might do to keep up their performance and to keep themselves busy.It's only when you see them in action at a large fire, major incident like a plane crash, a car crash, a chemical spillage or chemical fire that you realise what a great job they do. In my experience, out of all the emergency services, the Fire Brigade were the most professional and disciplined organisation that I ever worked with, they made the Police look like amateurs.Some firemen on Fire Prevention duties might go around schools talking to children about fire prevention, or go around giving advice to pensioners and dishing out smoke detectors or carbon monoxide detectors. How do you measure that other then by how much stuff they have distributed, - but they may have prevented some fires or gassing in the future, but we will never know.I was in Bowness a couple of months ago and next to the Marina there was a Fire Engine, with several staff, parked up all day in a prominent position, talking to the public and giving advice and allowing kids to go on the fire engine. It was a nice sunny day and some people might say "how can you justify that" or "how is that value for money". There is no correct answer to it.As I said before, they should get paid for 'what they are expected to do'.Going back to the Police and 'targets' I always found that if the Police 'targetted' one area, one type of crime or offence, or any other thing, all that happened was that you got 'displacement'. The trangressors would just move somewhere else or commit some other type of offence. It was just a waste of time and caused a lot of resentment amongst staff and public alike. The Police are very good at giving the Government what they want even if it is futile.I used to work in the Vice Squad at Chapeltown in the early eighties and one particular year I arrested over two hundred prostitutes, men for indecency and sexual offences, and other people for a variety of offences from woundings to robberies, etc. A traffic cop might report a thousand motorists for speeding in a year along with a whole range of other offences and also deal with accidents and crime. However, in the Fraud Squad, a detective might spend a whole year (or more) working on just one case which might not even go to court (based on a C.P.S. decision). The thing is that in all these cases, Vice Squad, Traffic Department, Fraud Squad or a normal constable patrolling a beat in a division (can you remember those days???), all officers of the same rank and service got the same pay. The same thing applied with operational and office bound staff (still essential in some jobs, e.g. custody suites, control rooms, complaints department, training department, etc.). I know that in more recent years, 'performance enhancement pay' has been introduced which, I understand, is like an annual bonus for doing a 'good' job and for 'keeping out of trouble'. Personally, I think that it is a bad idea and is unfair. In addition, I cynically think that nepotism creeps in.I think that the real answer is with good supervision, good training, and good staff appraisal systems done by trained staff. In my experience, in any job, good supervisors know what their staff are doing. I accept that it is difficult with staff that are bone idle or not doing their jobs properly but good supervisors know who they can rely on, who to watch out for and who needs a helping hand or more training. The responsibility of supervision and its accountability comes with the rank at whatever level. Unfortunately, the government will always want figures to count so I doubt that things will change in the forseeable future.Ian. My point precisely, Ian.

[rangieowner]

iansmithofotley wrote: Uno Hoo wrote: 'Ello,'ello,'ello - wot's that building in Westgate that says 'Police' on it, then? Doesn't that count as city centre? This means that if, for example, a man was arrested in Otley, he would usually be taken straight to Weetwood Police Station and not Otley Police Station, even though there are cells at Otley, Pudsey and what was Horsforth Police Station. This is because Weetwood is 'Designated'. Prisoners can be taken to non-designated police stations in the first instance but then must be transferrd to a designated police station as soon as possible, to appear before a Custody Officer, so it's usually easier to take them there in the first instance. The same thing would apply with Wetherby/Stainbeck and Garforth/Killingbeck.When I worked at Holbeck, we used to deal with prisoners from Morley.Apparently, since the re-arrangement of the Police Divisions e.g. Millgarth amalgamating with Holbeck, both of which were originally 'designated', Holbeck ceased to be 'designated' I dunno if this practise changes occasionally, but I was arrested in Otley in 2005 and i was taken to Pudsey not Weetwood, Maybe it was due to the nature of the alledged crime (of which i was not charged with by the way) and i am not willing to go into in any detail, but I assumed I would be taken to Weetwood as it is, I would have thought, the nearer station.

[iansmithofotley]

rangieowner said:I dunno if this practise changes occasionally, but I was arrested in Otley in 2005 and i was taken to Pudsey not Weetwood, Maybe it was due to the nature of the alledged crime (of which i was not charged with by the way) and i am not willing to go into in any detail, but I assumed I would be taken to Weetwood as it is, I would have thought, the nearer station. Hi rangieowner,It may have been because the Weetwood cells were full. It doesn't matter which Designated Police Station you were taken to, provided that there was a good reason for taking you there. Prisoners should not be taken by the 'scenic route', or to a Police Station that is miles away or whatever and the arresting officers must justify what they have done to a Custody Officer. The thing is that the 'time clock' starts ticking in relation to Police Detention as soon as the prisoner crosses the threshold of the police station. Police Detention is basically for up to 24 hours but with various lawful extensions, firstly by a Superintendent (who can extend it to 36 hours) and then by Magistrates (who can extend it to to a maximum of 96 hours). If a prisoner is not charged by this time then he should be released without charge or bailed to come back to a Police Station.Another problem with the police is that they are always 're-organising' divisions and making 'jumbo divisions' or 'sub divisions' - again it is a case of reinventing the wheel, as it has all been done before. Weetwood used to be linked with Chapeltown (Stainbeck). Nowadays, because of another reshuffle, it is linked with Pudsey. It is possible that because of this reshuffle that, at the moment, Pudsey is no longer a Designated Police Station but Weetwood still is. In any case, as I have mentioned previously, most prisoners now appear to be taken straight to the Bridewell.If a prisoner is only likely to be detained for a very short period, under 6 hours, then it is possible to take him to a police station which is not designated but this facility is rarely used except in rural areas. If he is to be kept longer, then he must be transferred to a Designated Police Station.Ian

[Misc]

If the police did move to the old greyhound stadium, how are they going to get to any other part of town on match days? I only ask as somebody who has to plan their existence around LUFC due to the seething mass of fat men eating pastry who stand in Elland Road with no heed for traffic/road safety. And when certain teams (Bradford, Millwall etc) come, you can't get in or out for hours at a time - I certainly wouldn't want to be getting murdered in Holbeck and waiting for the police to come from Elland Road to save me on a match day.Like so many other things in Leeds it probably won't happen, but at least it should put an end to the copper chopper hovering overhead doing nowt but rattling everybody's window frames for hours at a time

[biofichompinc]

It looks like the start of this work on the new Police HQ is imminent. Over the last couple of days high fences have been constructed around the whole site.More clues from back in January appear in this link.....http://theleedscitizen.wordpress.com/20 ... t-in-june/