High Speed Link to Leeds/Yorkshire/North East

[Brunel]

Circa 2030

[chameleon]

Brunel wrote: Circa 2030 20 years is a long time but commuter patterns and needs change quickly. I wonder if it will be as radical and beneficial then as it seems now?And of course until then, we've just got what we have - it always seems as though these initiatives are very 'last minute' with regard to society's needs     

[Loiner1960]

A few points.IC225's were able to run at 140mph but as BR wouldn't improve the signalling they were run at 125mph, the maximum passenger running speed on ECML. They are now limited to 125mph and the brakes will not allow them to run any faster (IC225 - 225kph or approx 140mph)The WCML is not the new route for HS2. Look carefully and it has spurs off for Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool. So it will not go to these cities but past them! With no other stations on the routes it will take all the New Labour MPs back to Glasgow in under 3 hours. The timescale of 2030 will mean it can be dropped pretty easily by any new government. But think the new stock are 3rd rail, overhead and diesel. So they could end up anywhere. With ERTMS (European Rail Trai Management System) being rolled out by 2012 it will be possible to run faster, upto 140mph, anyway on ECML.Remember, roads are investments so don't have to justify costs. Rail is capital cost and must pay its way. All I can say is Hitachi should manufactuer in Leeds and bring railways home.

[liits]

For those not in the enviable areas of [possibly] getting HS2, it will be worthwhile watching to see how soon the carping starts about “not in my back yard”.This happened in quite a few places in Kent. After the initial euphoria of the announcement of the CTRL, lots of opposition was put up because people didn’t see why they should have to have a new rail line running near their one horse town when the trains weren’t going to stop there. Ashford, for instance. It’s not possible to get to or from London on the Eurostar.If all the places that the CTRL ran through had a station - with trains stopping at them - it wouldn’t exactly be a high speed link..... more a new commuter service - which is maybe what they do need.I’m also surprised that the proposal for HS2 for the west side of the country has come so late in the day. After all the money and years of effort “upgrading” the west coast main line, one of the most torturously winding and with the steepest gradients on any routes outside Switzerland, why wasn’t this proposed years ago? Straighten out and level the route.I hope that if and when it is built, one of the sets of rolling stock has the driving cars at either end named Good Money & After Bad.

[cnosni]

Loiner1960 wrote: A few points.IC225's were able to run at 140mph but as BR wouldn't improve the signalling they were run at 125mph, the maximum passenger running speed on ECML. They are now limited to 125mph and the brakes will not allow them to run any faster (IC225 - 225kph or approx 140mph)The WCML is not the new route for HS2. Look carefully and it has spurs off for Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool. So it will not go to these cities but past them! With no other stations on the routes it will take all the New Labour MPs back to Glasgow in under 3 hours. The timescale of 2030 will mean it can be dropped pretty easily by any new government. But think the new stock are 3rd rail, overhead and diesel. So they could end up anywhere. With ERTMS (European Rail Trai Management System) being rolled out by 2012 it will be possible to run faster, upto 140mph, anyway on ECML.Remember, roads are investments so don't have to justify costs. Rail is capital cost and must pay its way. All I can say is Hitachi should manufactuer in Leeds and bring railways home. The class 91 loco is restricted to 125mph by the auto speed limiter,located in the no2 cab bulk head wall.Isolation of this will enable the loco to go at 140mph.Signalling IS in place between Stoke Tunnel and Peterborough (signal P494 at Werrington junction being the last signal) to allow this speed running.This is done by providing 5 aspect signalling,all the signals are capable of dislaying a red,single yellow,double yellow,green and flashing green aspect,thus giving one extra signal section warning to any train that if the signal you are passing is a steady green,then speed should be reduced as the next signal may be 2 yellows.The infrastructure on ECML,the overhreads,rail etc cannot handle 140mph running.The best piece of OHL on the ECML is just south of Newark,between Claypole and Newark south junction.This was a trial improvement on a particular section that could be closeley monitored.When French SNCF chaps were shown it they just shook their heads as its quality,not only in materials but in spacing between OHL stantions,was miles off that in France.Trust me,if National excuse could run at 140mph they would,but they cant.I would also doubt whether the rolling stock would take it,the Class 91s,despite having a mid life heavy upgrade,are beginning to fall apart.As for the stations on HS2 ,NR have stated that they will be located "close to existing stations",so they will not be located as to bypass the cities they are designed to serve.Closer inspection of the NR document claims that a direct link to Leeds on another East Coast based HS link would be a better option.This is NR's next designated feasablity study

[BLAKEY]

cnosni - this rolling stock discussion is most interesting to me as a fairly frequent traveller to "The Smoke." Personally I have never liked the "140" carriages even when they were new. There is a good amount of uncomfortable "flapping" of what seems to be inadequate structure - the similarity to most of the modern bus bodies is striking in this respect. The angle of the seat backs is also uncomfortable to me.I always loved the 125 carriages, and still do after more than one refurbishment - of the coaches , I am beyond any such rejuvenation - I believe. On the odd occasions that one appears either here or at Kings Cross I'm always very chuffed. A couple of years ago I rode on some 125s in Wales and found them as good as ever.    

[cnosni]

BLAKEY wrote: cnosni - this rolling stock discussion is most interesting to me as a fairly frequent traveller to "The Smoke." Personally I have never liked the "140" carriages even when they were new. There is a good amount of uncomfortable "flapping" of what seems to be inadequate structure - the similarity to most of the modern bus bodies is striking in this respect. The angle of the seat backs is also uncomfortable to me.I always loved the 125 carriages, and still do after more than one refurbishment - of the coaches , I am beyond any such rejuvenation - I believe. On the odd occasions that one appears either here or at Kings Cross I'm always very chuffed. A couple of years ago I rode on some 125s in Wales and found them as good as ever.     Im afraid im not an expert on the ride quality of the carriages,im usually at the pointy end.I do know that the mkiv coaches were an excellent design,strength wise.You need only look at the Great Heck derailment to see just how strong they are.

[BLAKEY]

cnosni wrote: Im afraid im not an expert on the ride quality of the carriages,im usually at the pointy end.I do know that the mkiv coaches were an excellent design,strength wise.You need only look at the Great Heck derailment to see just how strong they are. Indeed, Great Heck was a case in point and its nothing short of a miracle that many more weren't killed and maimed.So, you are at the pointy end eh ?? You have my greatest admiration for its a very responsible job indeed - no brake pedal for you to pull up in fifty yards !! I have a good friend who is a regular conductor on "the East Coast" from Leeds.

[Loiner1960]

Looking further into this HS2 route and it's even more of a cop out. The line will only initially go to the West Midlands. Then it will be investigated as to whether to extend the line Northwards.NIMBY's will go berserk going west out of London. As this will skirt the pretty bits. So for a lot less money, improve the OH on the ECML. Put in full ERTMS which is used on European High speed lines. And also open up the Woodhead Tunnels which would connect Manchester if you really need to. With HST2 of at least 9 coaches length to run on the upgraded lines. This whole thing has become soundbite TV. Yorkshire was supposed to have extra rolling stock but nothing came of it. I don't think I'll hold my breathe waiting for this. Connect the capitals London and Edinburgh direct without having to dig tunnels through the Lake District.

[raveydavey]

It would prove near impossible to re-open Woodhead, desireable though it may be.National Grid (or whatever they're called now) have been given premission to run major electricity cabling through at least one of the still "maintained" bores, to connect the power stations of the Trent Valley to the northwest. The cost of removing these and putting them somewhere else, added to the massive cost of re-instating everything else means it's never going to happen.Back to HS2, it's fair to say that by 2030 few of the current crop of politicians are still going to be about, so they'll have no interest in seeing it through, even if there was money for it.It's also fair to say that oil will have either run out, or be so expensive / rare only the airlines will be using it, so someone will have to pay for the railways electrifying nationally if we are going to be able to move around the country. Or are we going to start building steam engines again at Doncaster and York and re-open all those mines?