High Speed Link to Leeds/Yorkshire/North East

[cnosni]

HmmmmmmLooks like we have been left out of the "preferred" plans for HS2.Not only ourselves but Sheffield,York and Newcastle.If we are left out of this particular project then we are well and truly being taken for a ride.A county which has a larger population than Scotland and which contributes £87bn to the national economy has been,in Network Rails words "discounted".Naturally Manchester and Scotland are very happy to be in on the party,and good luck to em,but what concerns me is that such a large section of the country with large cities such as Leeds,Sheffield and the cities of the North east will be in a position of having an inferior connection to the capital.Surely this region deserves to have a line of this calibre linking from Birmingham up to Nottingham,Sheffield,Leeds,York and Newcastle.This could well be a rusty nail in a coffin lid if its not addressed.Firm and vocal action is required by all of those affected,even if it may not affect our particular generation it WILL affect future generations of this area.I think we need to team up with Sheffield,Nottingham,York and Newcastle to make our voices heard,surely even the cloth eared mandarins in Whitehall cannot ignore all of us together.

[Reginal Perrin]

I suppose they've looked at the existing line and thought the East Coast line is already pretty fast. I am OK with the decision but would suggest having a spur from the EC line to Sheffield, Donny and Donny Airport and LB Airport.    

[blackprince]

cnosni wrote: HmmmmmmLooks like we have been left out of the "preferred" plans for HS2.Not only ourselves but Sheffield,York and Newcastle.If we are left out of this particular project then we are well and truly being taken for a ride.A county which has a larger population than Scotland and which contributes £87bn to the national economy has been,in Network Rails words "discounted".Naturally Manchester and Scotland are very happy to be in on the party,and good luck to em,but what concerns me is that such a large section of the country with large cities such as Leeds,Sheffield and the cities of the North east will be in a position of having an inferior connection to the capital.Surely this region deserves to have a line of this calibre linking from Birmingham up to Nottingham,Sheffield,Leeds,York and Newcastle.This could well be a rusty nail in a coffin lid if its not addressed.Firm and vocal action is required by all of those affected,even if it may not affect our particular generation it WILL affect future generations of this area.I think we need to team up with Sheffield,Nottingham,York and Newcastle to make our voices heard,surely even the cloth eared mandarins in Whitehall cannot ignore all of us together. Chances are that this proposal is just pie in the sky written by people who are so blinkered that they don't realise this country just can't afford capital expenditure on this scale for the forseeable future. The rail services most people actually use are the commuter services , mainly in the SE. Investing in prestige projects like this in the present economic climate makes no sense for either government or the private sector. France and Spain have invested heavily in TGV lines over the last 20- 30 years , but the rest of the rail system in France has been neglected. Those countries are much bigger than the Uk and the cost of land for the new lines is cheaper. I am a bit concerned that if this proposal progresses large areas of land along the proposed route ( or routes) will suffer planning blight for decades.

[raveydavey]

I'm annoyed we've been excluded (again), but is this actually another white elephant?British Rail (remember them?) used to be able to get the very same trains that are still used on the East Coast Main Line from Leeds to London in under two hours.The reason the current lot take longer is that they've added additional stops (it takes a relatively large amount of time to slow, stop, load and accelerate an Inter City train) and due to the way the current system works they've also added loads of recovery time to timetables "just in case".And don't forget the ECML is designed for 140mph running, as are the trains, but it's a lack of political will that stops them doing so. That upgrade could be delivered for a tiny fraction of what has been already spent on the WCML, or is planned to be spent on HS rail.I'm laughing to myself at how these 200 mph trains are going to go from London to Glasgow in under two hours as is being quoted. As the actual distance is just over 400 miles, presumably the trains will require no time at all to accelerate / decelerate or, perhaps more importantly, stop en route - or is the plan that every passenger will want to travel from London to Glasgow - and not Birmingham, Manchester, etc?That said, the powers that be in Yorkshire need to look at why Manchester is constantly getting funding and we can't have a penny from the government - and that includes our current silent Labour MPs.Plus, the cynic in me suspects that this is more Labour spin, telling us what they're going to build prior to an election they know they will lose, so when the Conservatives get in and find the country is skint they can blame them for it not happening...

[blackprince]

raveydavey wrote: I'm annoyed we've been excluded (again), but is this actually another white elephant?British Rail (remember them?) used to be able to get the very same trains that are still used on the East Coast Main Line from Leeds to London in under two hours.The reason the current lot take longer is that they've added additional stops (it takes a relatively large amount of time to slow, stop, load and accelerate an Inter City train) and due to the way the current system works they've also added loads of recovery time to timetables "just in case".And don't forget the ECML is designed for 140mph running, as are the trains, but it's a lack of political will that stops them doing so. That upgrade could be delivered for a tiny fraction of what has been already spent on the WCML, or is planned to be spent on HS rail.I'm laughing to myself at how these 200 mph trains are going to go from London to Glasgow in under two hours as is being quoted. As the actual distance is just over 400 miles, presumably the trains will require no time at all to accelerate / decelerate or, perhaps more importantly, stop en route - or is the plan that every passenger will want to travel from London to Glasgow - and not Birmingham, Manchester, etc?That said, the powers that be in Yorkshire need to look at why Manchester is constantly getting funding and we can't have a penny from the government - and that includes our current silent Labour MPs.Plus, the cynic in me suspects that this is more Labour spin, telling us what they're going to build prior to an election they know they will lose, so when the Conservatives get in and find the country is skint they can blame them for it not happening... What's the current Leeds to London journey time on the ECML?

[cnosni]

blackprince wrote: raveydavey wrote: I'm annoyed we've been excluded (again), but is this actually another white elephant?British Rail (remember them?) used to be able to get the very same trains that are still used on the East Coast Main Line from Leeds to London in under two hours.The reason the current lot take longer is that they've added additional stops (it takes a relatively large amount of time to slow, stop, load and accelerate an Inter City train) and due to the way the current system works they've also added loads of recovery time to timetables "just in case".And don't forget the ECML is designed for 140mph running, as are the trains, but it's a lack of political will that stops them doing so. That upgrade could be delivered for a tiny fraction of what has been already spent on the WCML, or is planned to be spent on HS rail.I'm laughing to myself at how these 200 mph trains are going to go from London to Glasgow in under two hours as is being quoted. As the actual distance is just over 400 miles, presumably the trains will require no time at all to accelerate / decelerate or, perhaps more importantly, stop en route - or is the plan that every passenger will want to travel from London to Glasgow - and not Birmingham, Manchester, etc?That said, the powers that be in Yorkshire need to look at why Manchester is constantly getting funding and we can't have a penny from the government - and that includes our current silent Labour MPs.Plus, the cynic in me suspects that this is more Labour spin, telling us what they're going to build prior to an election they know they will lose, so when the Conservatives get in and find the country is skint they can blame them for it not happening... What's the current Leeds to London journey time on the ECML? Ive done it in 1:54,with first stop Wakefield from the cross.It was a sunday night though!!

[cnosni]

On reflection i think Network Rail have either been badly quoted OR they are not very subtle when it comes to presentation.The announcement said that the East Coast side had been "discounted" then further on,in the same statement they say that they are now going to look at an eastern route including Leeds,Sheffield and Newcastle.the times being quoted are clearly to impress the public,in reality,these trains will not make these times if stopping at intermediate stations,it is obviously a rough guide.If Leeds was to have a leg into the WC HS ,either via trans pennine (in yer dreams) to Manchester OR down through Sheffield/Nottingham and then to join at Birmingham then in all probability there would not be a significant saving on the fastest Leeds/London time on the ECML,which is often quoted as being two hours.Sheffield/Nottingham and Birmingham is not as much of a straight route as Leeds via Donny.I could not envisage any HS services to/ from Leeds not stopping at Sheffield or Nottingham.As with all ECML Anglo Scots services they stop at York and Newcastle.The real improvement on journey times for Leeds would be for an East coast option,BUT if this second supposed line (actually it would be HS3) was not built then it is essential that Leeds have some sort of link to WC HS/HS 2.I also have the sneaky suspiscion that this project will not materialise.The "Provinces" are clearly well down on the list of priorities when it comes to Transport.The southeast now recieves four,yes four times more spending per head compared to Yorkshire.Cross Rail is one hell of a big project,with the cost of one station in Canary Wharf costing £500m,more than our original Supertram!! station on Oxford Street,when integrated with the underground will come to £1bn on its own,yes,thats not a typo.Weve been told that the project will bring in many billions to the country,as with the olympics any potential benefit will only be for those in the south east,how someone from the north could possibly benefit from CrossRail is beyond me.If ity does stimulat growth it will be in the areas on either side,east west, of the capital.Cross Rail is not running North South,so any potential benefits will not find their way North.

[blackprince]

I agree with the comments above about the provinces transport requirements being low down on the government's priority list.Part of the original channel tunnel proposal promised Eurostar trains running from Crewe. The only aspect of the whole Eurostar project which might have had some benefit to those of us living N of Watford was quietly ditched when BA got involved with the funding. In fact a few trial runs from Crewe were made but these were never advertised or appeared on timetable. New trains for this Eurostar service from the North were purchased and spent several years mothballed on sidings near London before they were eventually sold to Canada.Someone mentioned the Leeds labour MPs being very quiet on the subject. I suspect that the other major cities on the negected ECML ( Sheffield , Newcastle ) are pretty solid Labour heartland too. Could they just be taking it for granted that these cities will vote Labour whatever happens whereas elsewhere in the country they need to buy votes with (false) promises?

[cnosni]

blackprince wrote: I agree with the comments above about the provinces transport requirements being low down on the government's priority list.Part of the original channel tunnel proposal promised Eurostar trains running from Crewe. The only aspect of the whole Eurostar project which might have had some benefit to those of us living N of Watford was quietly ditched when BA got involved with the funding. In fact a few trial runs from Crewe were made but these were never advertised or appeared on timetable. New trains for this Eurostar service from the North were purchased and spent several years mothballed on sidings near London before they were eventually sold to Canada.Someone mentioned the Leeds labour MPs being very quiet on the subject. I suspect that the other major cities on the negected ECML ( Sheffield , Newcastle ) are pretty solid Labour heartland too. Could they just be taking it for granted that these cities will vote Labour whatever happens whereas elsewhere in the country they need to buy votes with (false) promises? Points taken about the solid labour vote,but,Manchester and Liverpool are just as solidFrankly i think the East Coast option is a bit of a no goer because this side of the Pennines,up to Newcastle and past Sheffield would present a number of environmetal problems in the respect of geographical importance.The other side of the Pennines is bereft of any noteworthy landscape (matched only by there willingness to grab everything on offer no matter what),whereas the side upon which we live is far more picturesque and as a result will probably run into a lot of opposition from various pressure groups.This opposition would be more than valid,as we have some wonderful areas that need protection,but there may be a need to reach some sort of compromise,a balance that would allow an improvement in the transport infrastucture that would not only stimulate the economy of the region but would also make a significant impact to the Co2 emmisions that this country produces. Having given a lot of thought to all of this (i couldnt sleep the other night,i was incandescant with rage at the announcement,i do not jest) i realise that the only possible way that we may get a HS on this side is to use the route of the ECML,with a spur off to Sheffield .Now theres no way that will be done,so perhaps well have to have an eventual,begrudginley given connection (probably at reduced speed) via Manchester.This will be of detrement to one whole side of England,and will only be offset if HS3,and the envisaged environmental conflicts attached to it,can be tackled.

[chameleon]

Question - I don't think I've seen this anywhere:What is the time-scale for the completion of this project?