NGT Report

Post by **cnosni** » Thu 21 May, 2009 10:20 pm

chameleon wrote: cnosni wrote: drapesy wrote: PJ wrote: I like the cut of your jib Reggie. I didn't get where I am today without liking the look of jibs like yours Reggie. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.On a serious note,i wonder if any of you remember how this NGT consultation came about in the first place.It happened because the government were dangling a couple of million to each local authority to put out feelers (through these consultations) to see how people would respond to a "C" charge.Now Andrew Carter stated that Leeds council would not introduce such a scheme unless there was a viable mass transit system such as Supertram to encourage car drivers to leave their cars at home.When asked why the council had decided to do this consultation,even though there was no chance of a "C" charge whilst there was no Supertram Andrew Carter said"Well for two reasons,firstly the "C" charge keeps rearing its head within the DFT every now and then so the council wanted to be able to say that they had consulted the public over such an option and that it was rejected,and secondly (i like this bit) the government were offering £2M to any local authority to carry out a consultation.Who were Leeds Council to turn down a couple of million?"OK,maybe not word for word quote,but thats the reason behind the consultation.If you werent on the Headrow when it took place then you missed out.I guess a fancy caravan outside the library and a handful of well meaning chaps with clip boards wont have cost that much for a few days,certainly not a £2M.As for guided bus lanes,well they are pants.The whole idea of them is to have a dedicated bus lane that can be utilised by the driver being able to drive non handed whilst taking fares.Well call me old fashioned,but wouldnt a conductor be far better.Passengers could get on quickly,the driver can shut the door and move off,whilst the conductor does the fares.No need for the guided bus lanes with a conductor,but you can have a painted bus lanes which can then be used by all vehicles outside rush hour times. Isn't this just part of atwo-year research project? The intenetion is said to be investigate all problems, needs and solutions to support a case (well thought out proposal???) for funding for what ever is decided.Of course we need things to improve - in whatever form that might take - but forgive my cynicism if I suspect that the opportunity will be taken to extract more money from the travelling public.A good example is the recent changes at LBA. The drop-off point was closed as we know for security reasons and people then allowed 10 minutes in the the short stay carpark for this purpose. This has been reduced to 5 minutes - that is 5 minutes from entering, stopping, unloading and waiting in any queue to exit the place - nie on impossible during anything but the quietest times; £2.50 then please to get out, those unexpectedly discovering this then take time to complete the process holding up those behind who perhaps would not otherwise have incurred a charge.The Authority say it's part of a £2 million upgrade to, wait for it, 'Improve things for the public'! Taking advantage of a captive audience to line a privatised pocket is the blatant reality. Sounds like the railways.

Post by **chameleon** » Thu 21 May, 2009 10:54 pm

Short.... and to the point Chris! Seems to be the trend with everything these days pay me if you want it, pay me anyway if you dont.

Si · Post by Si » Fri 22 May, 2009 9:47 am

chameleon wrote: cnosni wrote: drapesy wrote: PJ wrote: I like the cut of your jib Reggie. I didn't get where I am today without liking the look of jibs like yours Reggie. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.On a serious note,i wonder if any of you remember how this NGT consultation came about in the first place.It happened because the government were dangling a couple of million to each local authority to put out feelers (through these consultations) to see how people would respond to a "C" charge.Now Andrew Carter stated that Leeds council would not introduce such a scheme unless there was a viable mass transit system such as Supertram to encourage car drivers to leave their cars at home.When asked why the council had decided to do this consultation,even though there was no chance of a "C" charge whilst there was no Supertram Andrew Carter said"Well for two reasons,firstly the "C" charge keeps rearing its head within the DFT every now and then so the council wanted to be able to say that they had consulted the public over such an option and that it was rejected,and secondly (i like this bit) the government were offering £2M to any local authority to carry out a consultation.Who were Leeds Council to turn down a couple of million?"OK,maybe not word for word quote,but thats the reason behind the consultation.If you werent on the Headrow when it took place then you missed out.I guess a fancy caravan outside the library and a handful of well meaning chaps with clip boards wont have cost that much for a few days,certainly not a £2M.As for guided bus lanes,well they are pants.The whole idea of them is to have a dedicated bus lane that can be utilised by the driver being able to drive non handed whilst taking fares.Well call me old fashioned,but wouldnt a conductor be far better.Passengers could get on quickly,the driver can shut the door and move off,whilst the conductor does the fares.No need for the guided bus lanes with a conductor,but you can have a painted bus lanes which can then be used by all vehicles outside rush hour times. Isn't this just part of atwo-year research project? The intenetion is said to be investigate all problems, needs and solutions to support a case (well thought out proposal???) for funding for what ever is decided.Of course we need things to improve - in whatever form that might take - but forgive my cynicism if I suspect that the opportunity will be taken to extract more money from the travelling public.A good example is the recent changes at LBA. The drop-off point was closed as we know for security reasons and people then allowed 10 minutes in the the short stay carpark for this purpose. This has been reduced to 5 minutes - that is 5 minutes from entering, stopping, unloading and waiting in any queue to exit the place - nie on impossible during anything but the quietest times; £2.50 then please to get out, those unexpectedly discovering this then take time to complete the process holding up those behind who perhaps would not otherwise have incurred a charge.The Authority say it's part of a £2 million upgrade to, wait for it, 'Improve things for the public'! Taking advantage of a captive audience to line a privatised pocket is the blatant reality. There can be no other reason for dropping it to 5 minutes, Chamy. Using "national security" to fleece the public. It's a bloody disgrace.

Keg · Post by **Keg** » Fri 22 May, 2009 10:13 am

I agree about having conductors on board, and stripping profit out, the services should have never been privatised in the first place, but i'm not sure where you have got the idea about leaving your car somewhere and paying £2 for a distance you could walk.The whole point of the buses being able to come off their guided busway and round the houses means that the car can stay safe and sound on the drive.Kirkstall road is a classic example of where a bus lane has caused havoc. I believe the 24-7 lane has saved "up to" six minutes on a journey into Leeds, I can't see that making people leap out of their cars.I should have made it clear in my earlier post that i'm not keen on either system, but if there has to be one, then Guided buses is the cheaper more flexible option. I'd be happy for the city to lose the bus lanes, they have halved capacity on all the major routes into Leeds, and let the buses mix it with the cars as they have to on most routes at various points anyway.It's a nightmare trying to put a 21st century solution in a Victorian city.All this jib cutting worries me too

Reginal Perrin · Post by **Reginal Perrin** » Fri 22 May, 2009 10:48 am

Keg wrote: I agree about having conductors on board, and stripping profit out, the services should have never been privatised in the first place, but i'm not sure where you have got the idea about leaving your car somewhere and paying £2 for a distance you could walk.The whole point of the buses being able to come off their guided busway and round the houses means that the car can stay safe and sound on the drive.Kirkstall road is a classic example of where a bus lane has caused havoc. I believe the 24-7 lane has saved "up to" six minutes on a journey into Leeds, I can't see that making people leap out of their cars.I should have made it clear in my earlier post that i'm not keen on either system, but if there has to be one, then Guided buses is the cheaper more flexible option. I'd be happy for the city to lose the bus lanes, they have halved capacity on all the major routes into Leeds, and let the buses mix it with the cars as they have to on most routes at various points anyway.It's a nightmare trying to put a 21st century solution in a Victorian city.All this jib cutting worries me too

My point about the £2 and a distance you could easily walk was the NGT route propsal for south Leeds. It only goes to Hunslet and you are almost in town and could walk it from there. Guided buses I have no knowledge of but some posters have made decent argument for them.

Post by **cnosni** » Fri 22 May, 2009 11:18 am

chameleon wrote: Short.... and to the point Chris! Seems to be the trend with everything these days pay me if you want it, pay me anyway if you dont. indeed,but true.National excuse now charge for a reservation on their choo choo trains,£2.50 each way.But get this,if you dont get your reservation you get a refund !Wow,thats radical,if you pay for something and dont get it you get a refund,never heard of that!BUT,hang on,theres a catch.IF there are other vacant seats available on the train then you wont get the refund,so unless its rammed to capacity then no refund.Now if you have gone to the trouble of booking 4 seats together,and for some reason such as the reservation machine not working or a late set swap or cancellation and therefore you dont get your 4 seats together then you dont get your £10 back if there are seats for all of you,no matter if you are sat together or not.Oh by the way,when you buy a "cheap" advance ticket then you have to have a reservation,good innit

Post by **chameleon** » Fri 22 May, 2009 2:06 pm

But get this,if you dont get your reservation you get a refund !BUT,hang on,theres a catch.IF there are other vacant seats available on the train then you wont get the refund,so unless its rammed to capacity then no refund.So if it's still the case that the ignoramous individuals ingore the reservation slip and sit there anyway and refuse to move - YOU sit somewhere else? If you don't get what you pay for surely there's a case for failure under the Supply of Goods and Services Act!

Post by **cnosni** » Sat 23 May, 2009 1:42 am

chameleon wrote: But get this,if you dont get your reservation you get a refund !BUT,hang on,theres a catch.IF there are other vacant seats available on the train then you wont get the refund,so unless its rammed to capacity then no refund.So if it's still the case that the ignoramous individuals ingore the reservation slip and sit there anyway and refuse to move - YOU sit somewhere else? If you don't get what you pay for surely there's a case for failure under the Supply of Goods and Services Act! Not quite,but yes.Does that make sense?The guard cannot physically force anyone to move and sitting in a reserved seat isnt against railway byelaws,just common decency.However removal of a reservation is punishable by a £50 fine,and thats from the Police.The guard will find alternative seats for you,and sometimes if the person in your reserved seat will not move,despite there being a reservation ticket,then the guard may put you in 1st class.By the way that is MAY,it doesnt mean will or have to.They like to do it tp pi$$ off the pr@t thats sat in your seat.

Post by **chameleon** » Sat 23 May, 2009 9:32 am

So in essence, the seat reservation system is rather a useless system - even if you need a seat! But then (despite Fev), a little more respect within society would solve the problem.

raveydavey · Post by **raveydavey** » Sat 23 May, 2009 9:15 pm

Guided buses? NO, NO, NO and NO again.In simple words they are a Big Fat Con. They offer no advantage at all over a normal bus lane, other than the requirement to have specially adpated buses to use them.This then perpetuates the First / Arriva duopoly over the services using them.Most of the Mis-Guided busway on York Road is actually good old fashioned red tarmac standard bus lane, which can not only be used by any bus (Yorkshire Coastliner, Harrogate and District, the odd First / Arriva services without stablisers, etc), but is also there for the emergency services to use to whizz past traffic. The number of times I've seen an ambulance come up York Road, lights and sirens on and then hit a brick wall of traffic at the end of the bus lane, whilst the mis-guided lane lies empty is unbelievable.There is also the ridiculous situation of passengers having to cross a dual carriageway to get to a bus stop where the central reservation used to be. This is dangerous for the passengers having to cross two lanes of traffic and causes congestion as the pedestrian crossings stop all the traffic. But then Metro also have the expense of bus stops on the 'ordinary' carriageway for all the non-mis-guided buses.It's also not unknown for First to have a shortage of mis-guided buses and to run ordinary buses on these routes (especially the 40), which can't use the mis-guided section and travel on the orindary road picking no-one up as all the passengers are stood in the middle of the road waiting for them.Then we have the two "cross-over" points where the bus priority lights stop everything to let the buses through on demand. The congestion these cause is beyond belief. I wonder if this was in the original design brief - "Jenkins, make sure that new buslane thingy causes as much congestion as possible"?I've noticed it's a favourite trick of the First drivers (when running in convoy) for one of them to trigger the lights and go through, while the other one hangs back and then pulls forward triggering the lights as soon as they change back, resluting in the lights changing again. This can mean the lights on York Road for other users can be green for as little as 8 seconds before changes. Another favourite trick is for buses to plough through the lights on amber (or indeed red) and this also triggers the system bringing the main carriageway to a halt while no buses at all are waiting for the lights.If you don't believe me get to the lights opposite the White Horse pub during the evening rush hour and watch for yourself.I can't see any benefit at all over an ordinary bus lane, other than the opportunity for a press release from Metro.