Burley Bar Stone - and the rest

[liits]

A quick search turns up a view from the other direction.1866. View of Boar Lane at the junction with Basinghall Street. At the left edge there is an advertisement for an National Exhibition of Works of Art in the Exhibition Building and a Gala in Cardigan Fields, Kirkstall Road. Next are the premises of Turner and Co, Spirit, ale and stout merchants, at the corner with Basinghall Street. Hargreave and Nussey, Woollen manufacturers and merchants at numbers 39 and 40 Boar Lane, can be seen on the opposite corner with a group of people, including three gentlemen with top hats, outside. Further along Boar Lane are Kendell's and the London Oyster Rooms. Either side of the junction with Basinghall Street nowadays (2013) is the Park Plaza Hotel and BHS, part of the Leeds Shopping Plaza. This part of Basinghall Street is now known as Lower Basinghall Street). Photography by Wormald of Leeds (Edmund Wormald, 46 Great George Street).

[jim]

Don't know if our posts crossed liits, but that is the picture I was asking for. Thanks!    

[liits]

Sorry Jim, I hadn't seen your post, I was trawling through Leodis looking for anything at that end of Boar Lane that wasn't the Royal Exchange building.I guess the bar stone, if it still survived by that date, was in the shadow somewhere.

[jim]

So long as it's on the thread, that's great liits.

[Phill_dvsn]

cnosni wrote: There MUST still have been some sort of civic/ adminitsrative importance attatched to them, perhaps some sort of benefit for those living within/trading with the old boundary, a perhaps a way of local revenue being collected if a transaction (at the Cloth Markets within the boundary?) has taken place between a trader/ manufacturer and buyer.I cant see the early Georgians going to the lengths of sentimentality by putting these replacenent stones in place.     Yes so it seems csnosi. I mentioned this point earlier, although I'm not sure what timeline this covers. *It was important to mark the boundaries of the town: those living within them were granted privileges, like paying lower tithes, free delivery of letters within the township and exemption from jury service at York Assizes*Also when you think there was the first water supply from Pitfall Street and all these other kind of needs that a small Town would need administering.     

[Phill_dvsn]

*I'm not sure if this link has been posted before?http://archive.org/stream/storyoftheeng ... vu.txtIt's a pretty in depth story of ye olde Leeds from the beginnings. I've not read it all yet, I just keep coming across bits on searches. But we might get something useful out of it. *And here is another in depth story how the town grew. http://www.archive.org/stream/relicsold ... vu.txtLots of great text like ''In Ledes (Leeds) there are ten carucates and six bovates of land for geld. Land to six ploughs. Seven thanes held it for seven manors. Now, twenty seven villanes and four sokemen and four bordars have fourteen ploughs there''I love that kind of old language long before txt msgs m8     

[LS1]

Phill_dvsn wrote: cnosni wrote: There MUST still have been some sort of civic/ adminitsrative importance attatched to them, perhaps some sort of benefit for those living within/trading with the old boundary, a perhaps a way of local revenue being collected if a transaction (at the Cloth Markets within the boundary?) has taken place between a trader/ manufacturer and buyer.I cant see the early Georgians going to the lengths of sentimentality by putting these replacenent stones in place.     Yes so it seems csnosi. I mentioned this point earlier, although I'm not sure what timeline this covers. *It was important to mark the boundaries of the town: those living within them were granted privileges, like paying lower tithes, free delivery of letters within the township and exemption from jury service at York Assizes*Also when you think there was the first water supply from Pitfall Street and all these other kind of needs that a small Town would need administering.      Wonder if it's to do with having "the freedom" of the city of Leeds? That gives people rights that would have been relevant in the 18th century but, in the actual town (it was of course not a city back then) rather than outlaying areas. Having the freedom of London for example means the rights apply in the city and not other areas.

[mark1978]

I've just found something rather interesting on Archive.org:http://www.archive.org/stream/yorkshire ... "Yorkshire, past and present: a history and a description of the three ridings of the great county of York, from the earliest ages to the year 1870; with an account of its manufactures, commerce, and civil and mechanical engineering" By EDWARD BAINES, M.P.,A few choice quotes:"Lidgate and Tower HilL — Thoresby says that the street adjoining to the North Bar was called Lidgate, even in his time. The name he derives from the Saxon words leod-gate, " the gate of the people." Thoresby also says that "this, being the highest part of the town in eai-ly times, was made choice of for building a tower." He adds that he had perused some manuscript sur- renders, &c., belonging to the lords of the manor of Leeds, wherein it was called "the Tower Hill;" and adds, that in the year 1695, when the workmen were digging deep, to lay a secure foundation for the vast cistern which was to serve as a repository for the river water, that was then first conveyed in lead pipes from the bridge foot to this place, they found "prodigious large stones and the ruins of a great wall, which seemed to have been the gromidwork of such a fabric ; " that is, as the ancient tower. ""North Bar.—" The North Bar was in early times the northern gate, at the entrance of the town. In early times all English towns were surrounded with walls and gates, at which the burgesses were compelled to keep watch and ward from sunset to sunrise, taking it in turns, so as to secure safety without too much fatigue. This seems to have been the origin of the North Bar, the West Bar, and of four other bars at Leeds (making six in all), at the entrance of the main streets.''^ These were intended chiefly for purposes of police ; but in time of war they were strengthened with trenches and additional works, generally extending from one bar to another, but sometimes formed considerably iu advance of the oi'iginal works. This seems to have been the case at York, Chester, and Leeds, in the great civil war, where new works of greater strength were constructed in front of the old fortifications. ""These bars were six in number, namely, Burley Bar, in Guildford Street ; Woodhouse Bar ; North Bar, in Korth Street, opposite the Workhouse ; East Bar, in Kirkgate, opposite Saint Peter's, or the parish church ; South Bar, at the south end of the bridge ; and West Bar, at the junction of (the present) Basinghall Street with Boar Lane. " The several sites," says Mr. Wardell, in his " Municipal History of Leeds," published in the year 1846, "are at present marked by boundary stones fixed in the walls, and inscribed with the name of each bar." "

[cnosni]

mark1978 wrote: I've just found something rather interesting on Archive.org:http://www.archive.org/stream/yorkshire ... "Yorkshire, past and present: a history and a description of the three ridings of the great county of York, from the earliest ages to the year 1870; with an account of its manufactures, commerce, and civil and mechanical engineering" By EDWARD BAINES, M.P.,A few choice quotes:"Lidgate and Tower HilL — Thoresby says that the street adjoining to the North Bar was called Lidgate, even in his time. The name he derives from the Saxon words leod-gate, " the gate of the people." Thoresby also says that "this, being the highest part of the town in eai-ly times, was made choice of for building a tower." He adds that he had perused some manuscript sur- renders, &c., belonging to the lords of the manor of Leeds, wherein it was called "the Tower Hill;" and adds, that in the year 1695, when the workmen were digging deep, to lay a secure foundation for the vast cistern which was to serve as a repository for the river water, that was then first conveyed in lead pipes from the bridge foot to this place, they found "prodigious large stones and the ruins of a great wall, which seemed to have been the gromidwork of such a fabric ; " that is, as the ancient tower. ""North Bar.—" The North Bar was in early times the northern gate, at the entrance of the town. In early times all English towns were surrounded with walls and gates, at which the burgesses were compelled to keep watch and ward from sunset to sunrise, taking it in turns, so as to secure safety without too much fatigue. This seems to have been the origin of the North Bar, the West Bar, and of four other bars at Leeds (making six in all), at the entrance of the main streets.''^ These were intended chiefly for purposes of police ; but in time of war they were strengthened with trenches and additional works, generally extending from one bar to another, but sometimes formed considerably iu advance of the oi'iginal works. This seems to have been the case at York, Chester, and Leeds, in the great civil war, where new works of greater strength were constructed in front of the old fortifications. ""These bars were six in number, namely, Burley Bar, in Guildford Street ; Woodhouse Bar ; North Bar, in Korth Street, opposite the Workhouse ; East Bar, in Kirkgate, opposite Saint Peter's, or the parish church ; South Bar, at the south end of the bridge ; and West Bar, at the junction of (the present) Basinghall Street with Boar Lane. " The several sites," says Mr. Wardell, in his " Municipal History of Leeds," published in the year 1846, "are at present marked by boundary stones fixed in the walls, and inscribed with the name of each bar." " Good find Mark.I dont wish to argue with old Ralph, but "Gate" isnt Saxon, its viking, coming from the word Gata,and was specifically used the Danish held territories of the Danelaw in what is now part of England.From http://www.viking.no/e/england/yorkshir ... htm#G-gate        way, street gata Found mainly in street names in towns/cities of the Danelaw, e.g. Kirkgate, Eastgate, Briggate, etc. I can see that Leod is a Saxon word, though Leeds itself was an Angle settlement.Perhaps the Lyd, or Leod, actually refers to the place name in which the Gata was located, that is, Leodis/ Ledes.Also intersting to note that the Bar stone on North Street was "opposite" the workhouse, which seems to indicate on the other side of the road to the workshouse and the preceeding St Marys Chapel.Phil intimated that this could well be the case.Just another thing, there has never been any evidence that there were walls nor attached gates around Leeds, perhaps Mr Baines did not know the real meaning of teh origin of Gate, and perhaps assumed that it meant a gated entrance.If there were then there would have been contemporary records kept for the cost of their upkeep etc, as there are for the dams in the Aire,they appear in Manorial records of which go back to before the Borough was formed in 1207.The only defensive, if that what you can call it, works that we know about were round the Manor House just about where the Scarborough Taps are now.Thoresby did speculate that there MAY have been some earthworks on Quarry Hill.    

[cnosni]

liits wrote: A quick search turns up a view from the other direction.1866. View of Boar Lane at the junction with Basinghall Street. At the left edge there is an advertisement for an National Exhibition of Works of Art in the Exhibition Building and a Gala in Cardigan Fields, Kirkstall Road. Next are the premises of Turner and Co, Spirit, ale and stout merchants, at the corner with Basinghall Street. Hargreave and Nussey, Woollen manufacturers and merchants at numbers 39 and 40 Boar Lane, can be seen on the opposite corner with a group of people, including three gentlemen with top hats, outside. Further along Boar Lane are Kendell's and the London Oyster Rooms. Either side of the junction with Basinghall Street nowadays (2013) is the Park Plaza Hotel and BHS, part of the Leeds Shopping Plaza. This part of Basinghall Street is now known as Lower Basinghall Street). Photography by Wormald of Leeds (Edmund Wormald, 46 Great George Street). Nice one Lee, was wondering where you were with this one.