Leeds trolleybus scheme delayed further

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Wed 12 Feb, 2014 9:20 am

Unfortunately,there are a number of things that aren't quite right in the corridors of power in Civic Hall and,in particular,in the toothless,unimaginitive Metro organisation.The latter,to my mind,makes a very uncomfortable bed partner with the council and local bus operators.The fact that it's chair and major public orator on all things NGT is also a local councillor who is also furtively pushing the folleybus scheme makes for a further uncomfortable "arrangement".Neutrality hardly even bares it's face.That Labour councillors had to be whipped on such an important local issue of future significance to the development of Leeds this century,speaks volumes of the fear of mass public sentiment.It reminds me of an old Henry Ford saying about his model "T"..........you can have any colour ,as long as it's black.

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Wed 12 Feb, 2014 9:50 am

B.B.C article on the First Bus proposal.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-26136794But Metro chairman Councillor James Lewis said "I give them two out of 10 for the idea [because] so far they have not actually delivered anything.Failed to deliver anything? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black Councillor Lewis.It is 2014 here, what have you delivered?

Squatch_11 · Post by **Squatch_11** » Wed 12 Feb, 2014 12:12 pm

Brunel wrote: "the result of First scuppering the supertram."No.! It was Alistair Darling that withdrew all the funding. Do you not think that First throwing their considerable weight around with the promise of tram-like buses helped Darling make that decision?One question for the anti-trolley bus people on here - I saw the before and after renders from the NGT site, and there wasn't one that I thought looked better before - now I know anyone can knock a photo up in photoshop, but the improvements to the city looked worth having to me - do none of you see any merits in what is being proposed?

Brunel · Post by **Brunel** » Wed 12 Feb, 2014 12:19 pm

@ Squatch 11: If the Trolley is so good, why has Manchester got an ever expanding tram system?There is more to this story that first meets your eye.There might be undisclosed Government interference.

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Wed 12 Feb, 2014 12:22 pm

Squatch_11 wrote: do none of you see any merits in what is being proposed? None what so ever.. Something is not better than nothing. T.bus will end up as a one route folly exactly like the misguided bus routes. It MUST NOT happen to this City!

BLAKEY · Post by **BLAKEY** » Wed 12 Feb, 2014 12:48 pm

Phill_dvsn wrote: Squatch_11 wrote: do none of you see any merits in what is being proposed? None what so ever.. Something is not better than nothing. T.bus will end up as a one route folly exactly like the misguided bus routes. It MUST NOT happen to this City! Neatly summed up as always Phill in one concise but very much to the point comment. I'm with you all the way.Also, as to "first's" impressive graphic of a green "Borismobile" what on earth planet are these people on ?? Only playboy Boris could devise, in the 21st century, a mobile atrocity like that - with the facility for passengers to be helped by the economically insane conductor to bale out of a moving vehicle - it beggars belief. Additionally, do all these ill read supporters of the"new Routemaster" really think that they are huge and of large capacity - oh dear oh dear oh dear

Post by **tyke bhoy** » Wed 12 Feb, 2014 1:50 pm

Squatch_11 wrote: Do you not think that First throwing their considerable weight around with the promise of tram-like buses helped Darling make that decision? Quite possibly but anyone with an ounce of gumption would have worked out that these tram like buses were just "tarted up" bendy buses. What made it worse that the only major changes that weren't purely cosmetic was to add, at great expense, a conductor and to remove seating capacity to make them more aesthetically pleasing on the eye (cosmetic). We also knew that bendy buses couldn't operate on some routes and have since discovered FTR cqn't operate on even more (ones that involve a visit to a pull in reverse out bus station Squatch_11 wrote: One question for the anti-trolley bus people on here - I saw the before and after renders from the NGT site, and there wasn't one that I thought looked better before - now I know anyone can knock a photo up in photoshop, but the improvements to the city looked worth having to me - do none of you see any merits in what is being proposed? Renders of the "after" always take on a Utopian view of the world and usually attempt to depict the now ("before") in as worse light as possible. It's also known as spin. Some of the renders deliberately avoid "blots" on the landscape that are not going to disappear just because NGT gets built (if it does). They also attempt to give iconic views which just aren't realistic. One appears to depict Bridgewater place in the fairly close background but can't possibly be from the proposed route and in fact looks to be more from Holbeck Urban Village when City Square is the closest it will get to there. Also how long do you think it will be before the routes are criss-crossed with tarmac filled trenhes created by utility companies

Squatch_11 · Post by **Squatch_11** » Wed 12 Feb, 2014 2:00 pm

See, this is what I can't get my head round. I can accept that people aren't swayed by the trolley bus bit. After all, it's a bus.But as far as I can tell, the main probelm is it isn't on tracks. If it was a tram, that followed the same route, had the same segregations, would the opinion still be quite so vitriloic?If yes, then what is the answer? What proposal would you support? Maybe that's for a different thread, but I'm genuinely interested given that few on here see absolutely any metir in the scheme whatsoever.

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Wed 12 Feb, 2014 2:38 pm

I think if you can't immediately see why trolleybus is a rubbish idea, then it's pretty hard to explain why. But I'll have a go.Even if.. and it's a big IF... At the very best if T.B bus does actually work, and saves a few minutes travel time (bare in mind that's a big if) There is absolutely no room for any further expansion of the scheme, no vision for the future. The Dr Beeching way of short sighted thinking is in evidence here, which is very much on par with L.C.C going on past performances. The scheme is road bound give or take a few hundred yards of segregated running (like the guided busway) Then it's too late then, we've gone down that road of T.bus as the preferred mode of transport for Leeds. We are stuck with it!!!! Forever! Something is better than nothing... really?What do L.C.C do next?Do they?1. Build another very expensive T.bus route that at the very best saves a few minutes travel time? Or do they?2. Realise they cocked up yet again, and leave us with a one route White Elephant like the guided bus ways. And in so doing leave this City still needing a modern day transport scheme? My money is firmly on number 2. That's why T.bus must never happen in Leeds. Leeds needs an integrated mode of transport, light rail just like Manchester, and the Tyne and Wear Metro that goes miles out of the City centre and out to the suburbs. If something is to be done, it needs to be done right from the beginning, no half measures. Start off small and build on good solid foundations in the future. As for the renders, and animation of T.bus gliding along making it look good.Anyone can make anything look good or bad, depending on what motives you have.If you think a scheme looks good because of the renders, then think again. Go back to your childhood. Think of T.B bus artists impressions as that one Christmas present you yearned for. The one that caused more excitement than any other....But... And I know everyone knows this feeling... Once the shiny wrapping paper was off, the box opened, and the toy or game eagerly set up. It was always a bit of an anti climax. What you got was nowhere near as good as how it looked on the T.V adverts, or on the brightly coloured amazing box *sigh* I could go on and on why T.bus is the worst thing to happen to Leeds. But in all honesty I think we've already gone round in circles exhaustively listing them in the past.

Squatch_11 · Post by **Squatch_11** » Wed 12 Feb, 2014 3:17 pm

I appreciate the lengthy reply Phil, and I respect your undoubted knowledge on thing transport and your enthusiasm, but looking at your post, let me pose a couple of questions. I don't believe that there is no room for expansion - Kirkstall Road, York Road, bits of Easterly Road off the top of my head to expand a network to. If the core line was a success (and I accept that it's an if), the perhaps a network spreading out would work.I certainly think that there is more opportunity to utilise old tram segregations for buses (be they electric, or diesel, or hybrid) that I can see for light rail. What abandoned lines are there around Leeds that could be of use (and I expect you to know these like the back of your hand!!). Crossgates through Scholes maybe to an A64 park and ride? Horsforth to the airport? Unless I'm missing something, the available real estate to build this light rail just isn't available, unlike the a lot of the area around Manchester. So you're back to sharing road space with traffic. Maybe there's a thought of getting rid of traffic from the city centre.Even if there was a large stash of money available, which there isn't (and we could debate the rights and wrongs of why Leeds has missed out, but I guess we should run for Councillors if we feel that strongly), I wonder what could be built (what actual route, what actual vehicles) that could gain a positive concensus.