Burley Bar Stone - and the rest

[Phill_dvsn]

If you pass this way again Lee. http://www.secretleeds.com/forum/Messag ... 104402Take a look in the joint near the bottom. If the stone is in that pillar it should be visible. That's if did they take out those untidy half bricks at the end when they built the cafe. The stone would have to be next to the building joint if that's what happened.Cheers     

[Cardiarms]

I suspect the unbounded 'vertical' brick course was sacrificial removed when the old pub was finally demolished and the office block went up. It provided a 'clean' boundary between the old pub and the new bus station brickwork. Perhaps.

[Phill_dvsn]

Cardiarms wrote: I suspect the unbounded 'vertical' brick course was sacrificial removed when the old pub was finally demolished and the office block went up. It provided a 'clean' boundary between the old pub and the new bus station brickwork. Perhaps. It would be so obvious to work out if only that photo showed a few more inches of brickwork and revealed if there was a corner or not. It's been pretty hard work so far making it clear it was built next to an old building, and that there were too many bricks for it to look like that today. I thought that trying to explain that part of the new wall had possibly been demolished, and parts of the new brickwork slightly altered again would be even harder to explain...... just yet anyway Still we haven't found out for sure either way. I'm a bit concerned that if the stone is in that pillar. It's very likely the joiners have drilled straight through it when fixing the wooden shop front cladding. I do hope not                 

[LS1]

Phill_dvsn wrote: If you pass this way again Lee. http://www.secretleeds.com/forum/Messag ... 104402Take a look in the joint near the bottom. If the stone is in that pillar it should be visible. That's if did they take out those untidy half bricks at the end when they built the cafe. The stone would have to be next to the building joint if that's what happened.Cheers      I posted this pic, posted on: 03-Mar-2014 21:27:45You can't see anything at the join of the buildings as the wooden façade is in the way.    

[liits]

mark1978 wrote: Hang about.1980 Leodis shot, as posted by Jogon on this thread in Sept 2012.What's that at ground level to the left of the bus station entrance? Whatever it is looks to be standing proud of the surface of the wall - set in the floor but against the wall as opposed to set flush in the wall itself. The more I look at it, the more it looks like a bag belonging to the body standing beside it.

[uncle mick]

There is a YEP article of 27/12/ 1963 re the bar stones available in the Local Studies library, if anyone is available to take a look http://tinyurl.com/punc6l7

[mark1978]

Phill_dvsn wrote: If you pass this way again Lee. http://www.secretleeds.com/forum/Messag ... 104402Take a look in the joint near the bottom. If the stone is in that pillar it should be visible. That's if did they take out those untidy half bricks at the end when they built the cafe. The stone would have to be next to the building joint if that's what happened.Cheers      I don't think the bar stone would be visible through the crack - looking at the brickie photo, even if they took out the half-bricks there's still another half-brick's worth of the wall proper before you get to the stone.

[mark1978]

liits wrote: Whatever it is looks to be standing proud of the surface of the wall - set in the floor but against the wall as opposed to set flush in the wall itself. The more I look at it, the more it looks like a bag belonging to the body standing beside it. I can see the bit that I think you're referring to. But look at the left-hand pillar of the entrance. There's something there too.Part of the frustration here is that we're stuck with these crappy low-res jpegs for photographic evidence. I bet the original prints are far clearer.

[mark1978]

Incidentally I've emailed the guy from the WYAAS who wrote the Eastgate Quarter report I linked to a few pages back - maybe he'll come back with a bit more information.

[cnosni]

Phill_dvsn wrote: cnosni wrote: The chantry chapels and the boundaries predate John Harrison by about 3 to 4 centuries, thats not to say that Harrison did not undertake some building on or around the site, necessitating moving of or replacing the original Bar Stone. PHIL< sorry i clicked edit instaed of quote so its wiped your roiginal message off, but its here below still, once again, very sorry-"That's totally correct yes Csnosi. But in the case of the North bar stone we have no evidence of this. The 1725 map clearly shows the Burley bar stone. But nothing at all for the North bar stone. In fact that area was called 'Towns & New Castle'The shaded in area was the area inside the bar boundaries. The shading in stops at Burley Bar. It also stops where the North bar stone was marked on the old map. But on that map and road layout it stopped on the ''other'' side of the road, and not on the bus station side of the road. So clearly in 1725 what would become the site of the bus station was not in the town boundary by that date. 1725 seems to be a very late date to not have the North bar stone marked if it was already hundreds of years old. The bottom of Vicar Lane is curved, and was obviously changed to resemble a layout similar to what we know today. The same will apply to the bus station part of Vicar Lane, and it has to be that point in time when the North Bar stone was placed there."            MY REPLY-The 1725 map does not show St Marys chantry chapel either, just the workhouse, hence my suggestion that it was (the Bar Stone) likley embedded in/ attached to the Chantry chapel.The shaded area shows where there is built environment, with prominent buildings being hilighted within those areas, so its not showing the boundaries, its showing where there is buildings.The boundary was not determined by the extent of any building, it was determined by whatever charter and the limits of the borough within that charter.These Chantry chapels, including the parish church, were generally positioned at the extremity of the towns (not just Leeds) boundary, a sort of last chance place to make a prayer/ light a candle and pray for a safe journey, its position is key.This is a practice that still goes on in southern Europe and Latin American countries, though this usualyy occurs at road side shrines rather than particular chapels.The reformation of the 16th century saw this practice of offering a prayer in this manner as belonging to "The Superstitious religion" (Thorseby makes such a description in his Ducatis when referring to Thomas Clavells Chapel), in other words Catholicism, which was outlawed and persecuted in favour of the new state religion of Protestantism at this time and to a lesser degree in subsequent centuries.The Reformation explains its probable fall from use, eventual abandonment and certainly by the 18th century (but probably much earlier) it no longer existing as nothing more than a memory.I would speculate that the workhouse being built on the site it may not be a coincidence, and perhaps the chapel at some time had come to offer relief to the towns poor and the destitute and that as years went by, and populations increased, a larger building was needed for this purpose.Perhaps they extended on the chapel or knocked it down to build a more suitable building, but it seems that this location was particularly entrinsic with offering relief for the poor with the workhouse being placed here, and its not unreasonable to speculate that this had originated with the chapel itself.Leeds illustrated History has a map showing the North Bar Stone marked in 1500, where St Marys Chantry Chapel was on North Street (now Vicar Lane).This is not an original map, the oldest surviving is 1560 which shows no bar stones at all, but this 1500 map is sourced from existing records and descriptions of the time, its a modern made up map with features sourced from what we know from contemporary records.There is another such map for 1350. It does dont show the bar stones but does show St Marys Chantry chapel. Given its position at the edge of the town boundary in the 1500's then its probably right to assume that was still the case back in 1350,this date coming after the formation of the Borough of Leeds (thats not ther Manor of Leeds which was larger) in 1207.The borough was expanded in 1626 to cover not only the Manor of Leeds but also the whole of the larger Parish of Leeds which includes Beeston, Headingley, Chapel Allerton,Bramley Hunslet and the land in between.So between 1207 and 1626 the borough remained the same size, but by 1626 it was expanded beyond those boundaries which went well past beyond the bar stones.So by 1725, with Cossins map, the town, in an administartional sense, had grown beyond the Bar Stones one hundred years before,and some decades before John Harrison had become prominent in Leeds, building the Grammatr (Free school on North Street and St Johns the Evangelist near the Merrion centre) in effect the Bar Stones had become redundant.