Burley Bar Stone - and the rest

LS1 · Post by **LS1** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 12:14 am

Had a look today and the bus station is built in the brick that the brickie is laying the bar stone into. I also noticed that the wooden cladding behind where I reckon could be is loose I'm pretty sure that it's not behind the back of the bus station, though there are some interesting features there.

Leodian · Post by **Leodian** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 12:19 am

Phill_dvsn wrote: mhoulden wrote: I found this photo of the old bus station in 1980 without the plywood, and there's no bar stone there I found that photo too. The only thing is I used it to show that the plywood 'was' there in the 70's Those were the same plywood boards in the 70's right through to the 80's looking at the first top two photos. But looking at today's google image you can see those ply boards have since been replaced. The ply sheets are longer today, and there are less of them. There is also a new access door or panel. I have yet to see a photo from any era when those plywood boards weren't there on the corner. The mystery deepens I wonder if the "new access door or panel" may be the metal 'gate' that currently covers the doorway at 102-104 and that it is pushed wide open so gives the impression that it is another access?I wonder why was the cladding changed to what it is now? Perhaps some cladding fell away and was repaired rather crudely, but that would not really seem a reason to put the rough wood/plywood cover that is there now. Perhaps there was something behind that was removed! All still intriguing stuff. As Sherlock Holmes would say, this is clearly a 2 pipe job.

LS1 · Post by **LS1** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 12:25 am

Is that cladding plywood? I thought it was some sort of stone. The plywood bit just looks to have been added later and is still there, it looks like it was put there to display posters. There is nothing behind it, I did have some photos but they just showed an empty space behind to I deleted them.Think you're right Leo, the gate is open so gives the impression of an additional door,

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 1:00 am

LS1 wrote: Is that cladding plywood? I thought it was some sort of stone. The plywood bit just looks to have been added later and is still there, it looks like it was put there to display posters. There is nothing behind it, I did have some photos but they just showed an empty space behind to I deleted them.Think you're right Leo, the gate is open so gives the impression of an additional door, Yes I meant that piece of ply. From far off it looked like an inspection hatch.I wasn't aware the rest of it wasn't ply sheets not having a look at it close up. I thought they were all ply sheets that had been covered in Green mineral roofing felt for weatherproofing. They have nail fixed that ply hatch in place, so there is something wooden behind it. If it was ply covered in roofing felt it would give the impression of something more substantial. Whoever passes next give it a good knock to see if it's wood or not. Felt covered plywood....Is that plausible? If not the cladding sheets they have used look rough as a Bears backside and have done since fixed. I know the bar stone is medieval and very historic to the City. And I'm always one for saving our heritage and recording it. But I can't help but think for what it actually looks like, that if you had just bought a house and was chopping down the overgrown garden. And you came across that old stone dumped in the undergrowth, you wouldn't think that much of it. You'd probably give it one good crack with the sledgehammer and use the bits for hardcore rubble. Or tip it over and use it for crazy paving. I'll throw away my job applications for the 'West Yorkshire Archaeological Advisory Service' and 'Civic Trust' now then shall I? Actually the old stone might not be much to look at. But it's fun trying to locate it, and well worth saving when we do

Leodian · Post by **Leodian** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 1:08 am

Sorry Phill but you lost your chance at joining the Leeds Civic Trust with your anti-trolleybus stance (along with many others)!

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 1:15 am

Leodian wrote: Sorry Phill but you lost your chance at joining the Leeds Civic Trust with your anti-trolleybus stance (along with many others)! Shhhh Leo. don't mention the White Cloth Hall.They wouldn't recognise important heritage if it fell on top of them when they knocked it down.Application forms now totally destroyed

liits · Post by **liits** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 10:45 am

Apart from the 1851 map, is the location of the stone noted anywhere else? I’ve looked through the other maps and can’t see any mention of it.Based in its location on the 1851 map, sown here with a red dot, it was just short of being opposite the northernmost line of Harrison Street.By the time of the next large scale map, the 1891 Town Plan, the stone is not marked on the map. Other changes to the map are the demolition of the workhouse along with chantry of St Mary [I always thought chantry chapels were built on bridges?] to be replaced by the Leeds Old Lead Works. The Crown & Anchor has also had a little jiggle of part of its location and seems to have moved partially into the front and wholly into the rear of the adjoining building. The Licensing Register, which commences in 1872 makes no mention of any material change to the pub so it must have taken place prior to that date – when extensions, changes, re-builds etc, etc, to premises were not recorded.The map does, though, have something else on it.....Underlined in red, does that say END, M.ND or what? I can’t figure out either what it is, or what it means – and its nothing to do with the OS benchmark notation beneath it. There is also a small anomaly on the building just to its left [marked with an arrow]. Is it a printing smudge, a drawing mistake, etc, etc? It would be in the right location for the stone based on the 1850 map.Now the photos.Based on a combination of the above and the photos, especially the streetscene of the Crown & Anchor [below], I think that the stone should be visible in the photo.Going back to the portion of the 1891 map, the “anomaly on the map is just to the south of the building with the entranceway beneath it [denoted on OS maps by the building having lines drawn corner to corner on it,] the leadworks.An enlargement of that part of the photo shows, at pavement level, two pieces of the wall jutting out [marked with arrows. Are either of these the stone?I cannot increase the resolution of the photo to make it any more distinct. Does anybody think that either of these could be the stone before it was moved?

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 11:49 am

Great points there Liits, and clearly explained.I too looked at those areas you have marked as as a possible boundary stone.The one on the right to me seems to resemble the bend of a soil pipe coming out of the wall. Does it appear to be roundish in shape with a curve to anyone else? Something similar to this but a wider pipe. The area you marked on the left looks the most likely of the two to me. Although the top appears to be straight, and it is a very small object. It could be buried deep down, the levels of the Leeds streets has changed a lot over the years. One thing I can't work out is how were these boundary bar stones treated in later days when they didn't signify anything like times gone by? If that old Cycle shop building was nothing to do with the chantry chapel (that looks unlikely) Then the bar stone would have been taken up and moved again when the chapel was demolished. Were they so exact where they relaid very old boundary stones that no longer held any importance except for historical purposes? Because the bar stone is marked as being outside the Chantry chapel. It doesn't mean it was there on the photo with the cycle shop. No maps mark it since, and those old building we see themselves could be 100-200 years old. The passing of hundreds of years history can get a bit confusing and cloud thinking.I've looked for info about the Chantry of St Mary's in Leeds. I've used North Street, Vicar Lane, and ''site of' in google searches and nothing at all has come up in the search results. That place must date back to the dark old days of the plagues in the 1600's possibly further back. It must be very old.I have read a few accounts that the old Leadworks was originally part of the Workhouse. I wouldn't take that as gospel though. Full size map herehttp://tinyurl.com/on7xc7jWe could do with a good quality old map of Leeds to see if the Chantry chapel was built so long ago, and was the boundary stone built in to it.

jim · Post by **jim** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 12:16 pm

Regarding the abbreviation you point out liits, I see it as W.N D - but those you suggest are just as possible, the first letter is undecipherable with any certainty. The full stop is clear, as is the absence of a second one. With that in mind:-ND - no date, no divisionE - edge, end ofM - mark, mile/s, mound, marsh, mount, masonryW - wall, way, wharf, well These are taken from various O.S,abbreviation lists, and I have left out some meanings which are clearly not relevant to the site concerned.Don't know if this helps in the slightest, but it's the thought that counts!

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 12:29 pm

Snippet of info regarding the chapel.Lady Lane derived name from medieval Chantry Chapel situated at junction of Lady Lane and Templar Lane. It was also site of first Catholic Church to be built in Leeds (1794). http://www.leodis.net/display.aspx?reso ... FULLEdited to add...St. Anne's Catholic Cathedral was built to replace St. Mary's Chapel in Lady Lane. It was intended that the church, like the old chapel would be dedicated to St. Mary. However in 1838 it was decided to dedicate it to St. Anne. The Architect John Child was engaged to design the new church, and the foundation stone was laid on 12th August 1837. St. Mary's Chapel was sold to help finance the new building. The original cathedral was located in St. Anne's Church in 1878, but that building was demolished around 1900. The current cathedral building on Cookridge Street was completed in 1904. The story of St Anne’s Cathedral begins in 1786 when a Dominican priest, Fr. Albert Underhill, moved the long established Roundhay Mission to premises in the centre of Leeds. In the autumn of that year some rooms were obtained in a building off Briggate to house the mission, and so the town’s first Catholic place of worship since the Reformation came into existence.This chapel, an upper room adjacent to the Pack Horse Hotel, served the small Catholic community in Leeds for eight years, until a purpose-built chapel.*St Mary’s, opened in Lady Lane in October 1794*