Leeds trolleybus scheme delayed further

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 10:20 am

jim wrote: I don't think your financial argument is comparing like with like. Surely electrifying an existing railway line like the Harrogate line, is just the same as electrifying the already existing Midland mainline. No new routes, or no new track has to be laid along any of them, the over head gantries, and remedial works across bridges, viaducts, and tunnels has to be done on both, but on the Harrogate line it's far less.It has to price up around about the figures quoted Jim.

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 10:21 am

Hi Phill,certainly food for serious thought that idea.......perhaps we could start a campaign entitled..."Volts for the Dolts".....or "We don't want a Trolley dash"...."Trolley is folly"......."The Trolley dash is a waste of cash"....etc etc ?

jim · Post by **jim** » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 11:12 am

Phill_dvsn wrote: jim wrote: I don't think your financial argument is comparing like with like. Surely electrifying an existing railway line like the Harrogate line, is just the same as electrifying the already existing Midland mainline. No new routes, or no new track has to be laid along any of them, the over head gantries, and remedial works across bridges, viaducts, and tunnels has to be done on both, but on the Harrogate line it's far less.It has to price up around about the figures quoted Jim. I'm afraid we are at cross purposes here Phill. I was comparing the quoted cost of the trolley bus provision, not your rail proposition, which of course has not been costed. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

jim · Post by **jim** » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 11:52 am

Sadly heavy or light rail electrification to Harrogate cannot be offered as a direct alternative to Stuportrolley. Not only is Harrogate well beyond the Leeds city boundary, it is also beyond the regional boundary in North Yorkshire. Any such proposition would have to be dealt with at national level, not by Leeds City Council.On the topic of Stuportrolley, many people are complaining that it will not be of use to local residents. It would seem to me that the idea is mainly targetted at out-of -town commuters leaving their vehicles at car parks on the city outskirts by the prospect of rapid stress-free travel into Leeds. The rest of us benefit (hopefully) by clearer roads to allow our transport less problems.Can't see it succeeding myself. Car drivers notoriously expect door-to-door ability, and any clearer roads will quickly attract extra custom on some sort of horrific variant of one of Parkinsons Laws.

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 12:30 pm

jim wrote: Sadly heavy or light rail electrification to Harrogate cannot be offered as a direct alternative to Stuportrolley. Not only is Harrogate well beyond the Leeds city boundary, it is also beyond the regional boundary in North Yorkshire. Any such proposition would have to be dealt with at national level, not by Leeds City Council.On the topic of Stuportrolley, many people are complaining that it will not be of use to local residents. It would seem to me that the idea is mainly targetted at out-of -town commuters leaving their vehicles at car parks on the city outskirts by the prospect of rapid stress-free travel into Leeds. The rest of us benefit (hopefully) by clearer roads to allow our transport less problems.Can't see it succeeding myself. Car drivers notoriously expect door-to-door ability, and any clearer roads will quickly attract extra custom on some sort of horrific variant of one of Parkinsons Laws. Rick Shaw to make a comeback ?????We might really modernise and see the odd hoss 'n cart too......

jim · Post by **jim** » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 12:42 pm

Rick Shaw might be preferable to troll E.Busse.

Riponian · Post by **Riponian** » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 12:55 pm

We could just wait until the next lot of government cutbacks, which seem to just affect the north, a bit like the "Cameron Gap" in the A1 between Leeming and Barton."Wonky Trolley" will serve a car park that no-one will use at one end, and have a closed student hall of residence at the other, neither good sources of passengers!Menston to Otley reopening (less than 2 miles) would a whole lot cheaper to get the "Gin and Jag" crowd to possibly use public transport, why get stuck in traffic in Headingley?

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 1:01 pm

jim wrote: Rick Shaw might be preferable to troll E.Busse. Ha Ha,I like that one jim.

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 1:08 pm

Riponian wrote: We could just wait until the next lot of government cutbacks, which seem to just affect the north, a bit like the "Cameron Gap" in the A1 between Leeming and Barton."Wonky Trolley" will serve a car park that no-one will use at one end, and have a closed student hall of residence at the other, neither good sources of passengers!Menston to Otley reopening (less than 2 miles) would a whole lot cheaper to get the "Gin and Jag" crowd to possibly use public transport, why get stuck in traffic in Headingley? "Gin and Jag" crowd using public transport ? Nay,a bit like me hoping for a date with Cameron Diaz.......Never the twain shall meet !

Barwicker · Post by **Barwicker** » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 1:17 pm

Phill_dvsn wrote: Just been doing some figures comparing electrifying the Midland mainline between St Pancras and Sheffield, with a route of 165 miles costing £500 million.Compared that to electrifying the Leeds-Harrogate line, a distance of 18 miles, which is 147 miles less than the Midland line.The Midland mainline is 7 times greater the distance than the Harrogate line, I'm open to correction here, but using the figures for electrifying the Midland line in miles for comparison. I arrive at a total cost to electrify the Harrogate line to be around the £70-£80 million mark. That would leave a whopping £170 million pounds left over from the £250 million pound funding we have 'finally' secured for the Folly bus covering only 8.7 miles in length. Just think what that money could go towards building, my viaduct in the sky connecting the disused Central viaduct, to a brand new integrated tram and train station on the old Wellington station site needn't be pie in the sky.After all the East Leeds radial road and inner ring road stage 7 only cost £32 million to build, and in all respects that exactly the same kind of viaduct you would need, and it's conveniently around the same length.After electrifying the Harrogate line, and building the necessary viaduct infrastructure, I reckon that would leave around £130 million still in the kitty.Of course government funding comes into a new light once you are talking about electrifying a local railway line instead of a Leeds city only guided busway. No longer are we talking about giving funding to L.C.C only for the city of Leeds, were talking about funding a local project between Network rail, Metro, Harrogate Borough Council, and Leeds City Council benefiting both West, and North Yorkshire. So many more thousands of people stand to benefit, this is value for money which makes the government act. This gives Leeds a great foundation to expand the integrated light rail tram to the airport and across the city in the future.Metro after all are supposed to be set up to oversee these things and make 'partnerships' and get all local authorities, and transport providers working together.Or so it says on their website herehttp://www.wyita.gov.uk/Home.htmSurely a nice little easy project like this wouldn't tax them too much?Just think of the extra funding we could achieve as West Yorkshire, and not just Leeds City Council.I've heard it said before that Bramhope tunnel would pose a problem to electrify the line, but the Midland line has several tunnels along it's route, one of the longest to nearly equal Bramhope is Bradway Tunnel at Dronfield seen below, that measures in at 2,027 yards (1,853 m)I do think when you consider what can be achieved with the money we have available, than the 8.7 mile of trolley bus we are going to get stuck with is complete bufoonerey! It does not alter the main thrust of Phil's argument, merely some of the calculations, but the Midland main Line is already electrified as far as Bedford, almost exactly 50 miles from London.