Leeds trolleybus scheme delayed further

BLAKEY · Post by **BLAKEY** » Sun 15 Jul, 2012 12:09 am

Phill_dvsn wrote: Ravey, I think we'd make a good double act.I'd like to see me and you on the commiteee, for every plus point they tried to pin on something, we could knock two off straight away Certainly you both WOULD make a superb double act - frank and unbiased common sense and realism on tap 24/7 at the click of a mouse c/c Leeds Civic Hall

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Sun 15 Jul, 2012 12:16 am

raveydavey wrote: Phill_dvsn wrote: raveydavey wrote: The End. Love it, and how very apt is your signature there Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act – George Orwell. Glad you like it - has anyone thought of calling it the "folly bus" or can I claim that one? From the dictionary:Folly: Noun: Lack of good sense; foolishness: "an act of sheer folly".A foolish act, idea, or practice: "the follies of youth".Synonyms: foolishness - silliness - foolery - nonsense - madnessSeem to fit, doesn't it? Yes you can,but i've copyright on "off your trolley" bus.....coined it weeks ago in YEP but there you go.....I don't mind 'cos it's true !

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Sun 15 Jul, 2012 1:02 am

For many weeks now,I have been attempting to dampen the ardour of even the most fervent supporters of this doomed attempt to bring comfort and succour to Leeds public transport users.Many,I suspect,are of a like opinion...To those with alternative opinions,well....fair enough.People are entitled to a view of course.Other than this,I am at a constant loss to understand or support a scheme that will bring untold future recriminations amongst those that chose this option for us......well after they no longer occupy the seats of power in the Civic Hall of course.Such will be the legacy of the short sighted amongst us.Such that they will not be bothered by such.Such is life.......

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Sun 15 Jul, 2012 11:48 am

somme1916 wrote: For many weeks now,I have been attempting to dampen the ardour of even the most fervent supporters of this doomed attempt to bring comfort and succour to Leeds public transport users.Many,I suspect,are of a like opinion...To those with alternative opinions,well....fair enough.People are entitled to a view of course.Other than this,I am at a constant loss to understand or support a scheme that will bring untold future recriminations amongst those that chose this option for us......well after they no longer occupy the seats of power in the Civic Hall of course.Such will be the legacy of the short sighted amongst us.Such that they will not be bothered by such.Such is life....... It would be good to put this more into the public domain, I'm just wondering if a dedicated webpage, and/or flickr 'Stop the Leeds trolley bus' campaign, or public 'unbiased' information is in order.I mean strip away all the fancy words, Cognitive distortion, Media manipulation, Information subsidy and paint the thing in it's true colours.For example, anyone reading this blatantly untrue article herehttp://www.constructionenquirer.com/2012/07/05 ... heme/Could be forgiven for thinking it's a brilliant idea, but that article isn't quite true is it in reality? It's been 'sexed up' a tactic used by every good spin Doctor worth his salt.For example quote Transport secretary Justine Greening.*“It is also a great example of what this coalition government and West Yorkshire partners can achieve when we knuckle down together and stick at finding a real solution to today’s challenges*What he really means is Leeds council have failed consistently and repeatedly for over 2 decades to secure any funding for a transport scheme when other Cities less the size of Leeds have succeeded. L.C.C have left it so long, they missed the boat through all the boom years, the years of mass redevelopment, and when banks were throwing money at people, they couldn't give it away fast enough, yet they still failed to deliver any kind of transport scheme in those Halycon days. Now we are in tough times, or should I say 'Camerons manufactured 'Austerity times' a time were we are all in in it together, and have to buckle our belts. Really all this is a ploy to slash government spending like closing hospitals, and fobbing ineffective local councils off like Leeds 'destroying the' City council.Too late, you missed the boat, and now you can have a fraction of the funding other cities with decent, and effective councils have had in the past.However, we are all in this together, our status, jobs, perks with all the expenses paid fact finding Holidays, I mean trips are at stake here, both myself Justine Greening, and Leeds City Council had better make this thing sound amazing to stop those stupid proletarians from Leeds finding out the truth and causing an uproar of rage. So here goes, lets as a 'partnership' work together and through good media manipulation and Cognitive distortion we can make this thing sound brilliant.So here goes...Lets say this*Transport secretary Justine Greening said: “Leeds will have new state-of-the-art trolleybuses that will be faster, more reliable and greener than their predecessors*Now that one really does puzzle me, I would really hope a trolley bus built today would be better than our predecessor trolley buses. Leeds got rid of it's last trolley bus in 1929 Mind you the foolish people of Leeds won't realise this is total rubbish talk, it sounds amazing and that is the main thing.Lets carry on with this charade, okay the next bit.*When the trolleybus system is completed it will run from Holt Park in the north to Stourton in the south, linking with two Park-and-Ride sites. It will operate in exclusive designated road lanes along more than 40% of its 8.7 mile length*Once again Cognitive distortion at it's best.What it really should say is very little new segregated T.Busway is actually been built at all. It's little more than 2000 yards (at most) new segregated busway along the entire route.But that doesn't matter, we'll say the T.Bus will run along designated route along 40% of it's route to make it sound great.We'll not readily admit that this really means it is using the bus lanes already in place, we can't have the foolish people of Leeds knowing your spending £250 million pound putting up overhead wires along an 8.7 mile route, building 2000 yards of new bus way, flipping heck they'd be calling for our heads if they knew the truth.After all it's only costing £500 million to electrify 165 miles of railway from London-Sheffield. We have to glitz this Leeds T.Bus up all we can, and if that means complete lies and blatant nonsense, then so be it.We need to make this T.Bus sound much more attractive than what it really is, what we mustn't do is let the people of Leeds know it is nothing more than what a regular bus can do.I couldn't possibly come out with amazing statements like this if they knew the truth.*“They will make public transport in Leeds more accessible and attractive than ever before and I know trolleybuses will be transformational for growth and jobs in West Yorkshire*And with that the magical transport secretary waved his magic wand and disappeared in a cloud of smoke (obviously the cleaner, greener, and more eco friendly kind of low emission smoke) What I'm going to do in a bit is study these route maps like the one herehttp://southleedslife.com/2012/07/05/leeds-trolleybus-next-stop-south-leeds/I'm going to meticulously measure every yard of segregated new T.Busway using google earth mapping and measuring, not as the crow flies, but as the T.Bus actually travels.I'm going to work out exactly what percentage of the route is actually new busway, and not something that our already in place buses and bus lanes can't already achieve. They will be no Cognitive distortion with my figures.I certainly won't reach the same economical with the truth 40% designated/segregated 'Off your trolley bus' (Folly bus) route that Magic Magician Grayling and Leeds 'destroying the city' council arrive at.

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Sun 15 Jul, 2012 12:30 pm

(phill d)...This is a man with a mission.Well put(last posting) phill,good luck mate from a fellow disbeliever.It's always good to expose the contrived machinations of the conspiracy camp for what they truly are.Mutton dressed as lamb seems an apt analogy of the T.bus proposals.

raveydavey · Post by **raveydavey** » Sun 15 Jul, 2012 4:15 pm

Phill, you're not behind this website are you...http://newgenerationtransport.com/ It should be compulsory reading for all on this subject. Seems like the residents of Woodhouse / Hyde park are equally up in arms.Have we found anyone who welcomes this white elephant of a scheme yet?

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Sun 15 Jul, 2012 4:51 pm

raveydavey wrote: Phill, you're not behind this website are you...http://newgenerationtransport.com/ It should be compulsory reading for all on this subject. Seems like the residents of Woodhouse / Hyde park are equally up in arms.Have we found anyone who welcomes this white elephant of a scheme yet? No I'm not, but thanks for linking it, I'm going to give it a good read too. It's about time we joined forces I think, It's always good to make as big a noise as possible. I've given my little friend at the Y.E.P a shout too.As for L.C.C!We will have no truce or parley with you, or the grisly gang who work your wicked will! You do your worst! - and we will do our best!Sir Winston Churchill

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Sun 15 Jul, 2012 6:05 pm

There are a few comments of what people think of Leeds T.Bus on the U.K rail forum herehttp://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=31439A few notable ones here.*Cuckoo! Cuckoo! What a waste of money. *It's an expensive way to not get people out of their cars!*£250m for Leeds buses. At £30m a mile.With ideas like this, Leeds can forget becoming the principal city in the north any time soon...! *And who is to say that Labour haven't simply passed this with the intention of pleasing its Leeds electorate?

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 8:42 am

Just been doing some figures comparing electrifying the Midland mainline between St Pancras and Sheffield, with a route of 165 miles costing £500 million.Compared that to electrifying the Leeds-Harrogate line, a distance of 18 miles, which is 147 miles less than the Midland line.The Midland mainline is 7 times greater the distance than the Harrogate line, I'm open to correction here, but using the figures for electrifying the Midland line in miles for comparison. I arrive at a total cost to electrify the Harrogate line to be around the £70-£80 million mark. That would leave a whopping £170 million pounds left over from the £250 million pound funding we have 'finally' secured for the Folly bus covering only 8.7 miles in length. Just think what that money could go towards building, my viaduct in the sky connecting the disused Central viaduct, to a brand new integrated tram and train station on the old Wellington station site needn't be pie in the sky.After all the East Leeds radial road and inner ring road stage 7 only cost £32 million to build, and in all respects that exactly the same kind of viaduct you would need, and it's conveniently around the same length.After electrifying the Harrogate line, and building the necessary viaduct infrastructure, I reckon that would leave around £130 million still in the kitty.Of course government funding comes into a new light once you are talking about electrifying a local railway line instead of a Leeds city only guided busway. No longer are we talking about giving funding to L.C.C only for the city of Leeds, were talking about funding a local project between Network rail, Metro, Harrogate Borough Council, and Leeds City Council benefiting both West, and North Yorkshire. So many more thousands of people stand to benefit, this is value for money which makes the government act. This gives Leeds a great foundation to expand the integrated light rail tram to the airport and across the city in the future.Metro after all are supposed to be set up to oversee these things and make 'partnerships' and get all local authorities, and transport providers working together.Or so it says on their website herehttp://www.wyita.gov.uk/Home.htmSurely a nice little easy project like this wouldn't tax them too much?Just think of the extra funding we could achieve as West Yorkshire, and not just Leeds City Council.I've heard it said before that Bramhope tunnel would pose a problem to electrify the line, but the Midland line has several tunnels along it's route, one of the longest to nearly equal Bramhope is Bradway Tunnel at Dronfield seen below, that measures in at 2,027 yards (1,853 m)I do think when you consider what can be achieved with the money we have available, than the 8.7 mile of trolley bus we are going to get stuck with is complete bufoonerey!

jim · Post by **jim** » Mon 16 Jul, 2012 10:15 am

Whilst I agree with everything you say about "Trolleyfolly" as a concept Phill, and that your ideas on what could be done with rail are well thought out, I don't think your financial argument is comparing like with like.Because of the way that the rail business is organised, the Midland project funding will not include the trains or the facilities in which to store, maintain, and repair them. Additionally, much of the existing infrastructure will still be usable, and there will be no new ground to be acquired or engineered. All these elements will have to be included in the funding for whatever "new" transport system Leeds settles on/gets saddled with.........and I'm afraid I have absolutely no idea how to go about the necessary calculations to make a fair comparison.