Leeds trolleybus scheme delayed further

headingleylad · Post by **headingleylad** » Thu 05 Jul, 2012 8:15 pm

Lets go back to the horse buses, they will be as quick Worst Bus, with no pollution to the air and a benefit of side product they could sell to put on gardens.

raveydavey · Post by **raveydavey** » Thu 05 Jul, 2012 8:57 pm

Another farce from Leeds, the city that never leads.Still if it's good enough for Hangzhou* (China), Yerevan (Armenia), Tehran (Iran), Bishkek (Kyrgyzstan), Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia), Pyongyang, Chongjin and Nampho (all North Korea), Chisinau (Moldova) then it must be good enough for us in the neglected frozen north.Is anyone spotting a theme with the places listed above?Transport buffs will also know that Tehran is home to an elderly fleet ex-BR Pacer DMU's so that is something else we will have in common with them. President Ahmadinejad will feel right at home if he visits Leeds won't he?* - Leeds' "twin" city in China - bit of a co-incidence eh?

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Thu 05 Jul, 2012 10:41 pm

raveydavey wrote: Another farce from Leeds, the city that never leads.Still if it's good enough for Hangzhou* (China), Yerevan (Armenia), Tehran (Iran), Bishkek (Kyrgyzstan), Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia), Pyongyang, Chongjin and Nampho (all North Korea), Chisinau (Moldova) then it must be good enough for us in the neglected frozen north.Is anyone spotting a theme with the places listed above?Transport buffs will also know that Tehran is home to an elderly fleet ex-BR Pacer DMU's so that is something else we will have in common with them. President Ahmadinejad will feel right at home if he visits Leeds won't he?* - Leeds' "twin" city in China - bit of a co-incidence eh? Raveydavey:What u like !....you obviously do your homework.....I like that....and,for the record,I agree 100% what you say.I really don't know what to add without swearing about "our"council mate" I could come up with something meaningful perhaps but I'm at a loss to do that with anything LCC.

Squatch_11 · Post by **Squatch_11** » Fri 06 Jul, 2012 1:02 am

If you mean that I'm your "council mate", a) I don't work for the council and b) feel free to swear at me, but maybe do it over a pint rather than from behind a keyboard if you feel so strongly about it.But for all the protestations about this new evil being foisted upon the fair city, none of you seem to have come up with a costed, viable alternative.I see complaining about the trolleybus over the tram based on a) it has wires, b) it can't leave the route. Sit back and tell me the difference, except that one doesn't have to dig up the street to lay tracks. Maybe capacity is the issue. Can a tram carry more than a bus? Maybe. What if a bus is a third of the price of a tram?I like a debate as much as the next man, but some of you on here are coming across as spoilt kids who can't have their "tram-set", so everything else is rubbish.And then there's the money - this scheme seems to be around the £200m mark. A lot of money no doubt. When the supertram scheme got pulled in 2004, it was estimated at over £500m. And what has inflation done to that amount in the last 8 years? Where is it coming from? Are we all going to pay more council tax for it?So don't give me the old "we want a tram or nowt", it's a ridiculous position, for the sake of rational debate, put forward what you'd suggest for the same amount that's better.Or post pictures of 1900's Leeds or youtube videos, whichever you think adds to the discussion more.......

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Fri 06 Jul, 2012 8:26 am

Squatch_11 wrote: But for all the protestations about this new evil being foisted upon the fair city, none of you seem to have come up with a costed, viable alternative. I'm scratching my head how I can make it any clearer to you actually Squatch, however I'll try again.The trolley bus isn't even as good as a conventional bus, the reason being it has to go under wires, therefore it has to be a single decker, just like the purple slugs that have done nothing at all for the Cities transport problems...proven fact!The off your trolley bus either has to carry less passengers, or be doubled up with a trailer bus making it longer, and harder to maneuver, thus causing more traffic delays behind it. Just like the purple slugs.The Leeds City council spin doctors are, and will be boasting the fact it will use it's own 'guided busway' in places to try make this thing sound any good.Leeds has, along with the FTR slugs with pilots, and cockpits e.t.c, already has misguided busways in very short sections, another costly farce that has done nothing to alleviate the Cities traffic problems, proven fact. The misguided busways are actually slower than normal road speed, the buses can't go too fast down them as they start to bounce from side to side hitting the raised kerb.So now we have this amazing trolley bus that's tied to it's wires and can't be used elsewhere, it has to be driven slower because it is longer, and care must be taken not to pull the whole lot of wires down behind it if it tries to go out of it's limited travel area, it also has to go even slower down the guided busway as it will wobble about too much. Whenever I've travelled along a guided busway, my bus has always been overtaken by buses like Arriva and other companies who don't use it.Can anyone explain to me how being on a slower bus being overtaken by other buses is better? So already we see Leeds great idea of integrated transport system, mad cap, cheap, half baked no good for nothing little ideas thrown together, no clear idea and policy at all.That's how it stands in 2012, building of this off your trolley will not start until 2016 and finished in 2018, this is another indication of L.C.C's total ineptitude, we really are 2 decades behind other Cities like Manchester with it's light rail system, that's extending to every part of the city, a new line under construction constantly, places like.... Newcastle with it's metro, only they call that the 'Tyne and Wear metro' because it's extended so far by now.As I've said before, if we get lumbered with this, were stuck with it, I'm sure that must be easy enough to understand?We never will get any other form of transport once this is in place, that will be a disaster for this City, you think we can go to Whitehall asking for money for a light rail system, or any other kind of transport once this in place?You can just see the response, your joking, you got the trolley buses mate, go expand that. And when that has proven to be a complete failure, do you suppose Leeds will still throw good money at it?No other City in this country will touch them with a barge pole, never mind an electric pole. All the other cities, even places like Croydon have ONE good transport system in place, not little bits of this and that thrown together. And after all trolley buses are being phased out in the few places they are used in Europe already, the rest of the places like Yerevan (Armenia), Tehran (Iran), Bishkek (Kyrgyzstan), Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia), Pyongyang, Chongjin and Nampho (all North Korea), Chisinau (Moldova) will probably keep them as they may be marginally better than a rickshaw. I'm not sure if it's a case of finding a viable alternative at all, the point is why should we have to find a viable alternative at all?Why??At this late date of 2012, why has this City constantly failed to have one good transport system in place like all other major Cities for years? We even wasted millions on plans for a light rail system, yet we failed to deliver where others succeeded.I think this is the question that needs answering really. Why in 2012 has Leeds no good transport system in place, and why should we have to find, or even settle for a cheap alternative when others haven't?

Cardiarms · Post by **Cardiarms** » Fri 06 Jul, 2012 8:51 am

I can't see the point of the trolley bus over a conventional bus. What is it about a trolley bus that make it worth the additional investment?I'd rather we developed rail capacity in Leeds and West Yorkshire coupled with an simple, integrated bus/park and ride traffic managment. The development of Kirkstall Road shows you can provide exclusive bus lanes and management without poles, power, guided bus lanes (which have the visual appeal of a drainage ditch).There are two sites standing empty on either side of the city centre that could provide additional train capacity, particulalry for commuters regional rail services, Marsh Lane and Wellington Street. What used to be on those sites?

LS1 · Post by **LS1** » Fri 06 Jul, 2012 9:15 am

Forgive if I’m missing the point here, but:I was watching Look North last night and they had Nick Clegg on there talking about regeneration and the setting up of two city areas, Leeds and Sheffield. Leeds covers most of North Yorks and surrounding but has Leeds as the epicentre, Sheffield similar. They also mentioned that the trolley bus scheme will be going ahead definitely now. What I don't understand is that when we had trams in Leeds pre 1959, they still used the same roads that the other transport used and at this point there were far less cars on the roads to cause much of a problem. can someone also confirm if there were less buses at that time to compensate for the fact there were the trams?I think unless the trolley buses used some sort of reserved track, yes it is pointless, but if they are then surely its the same as a tram but just no rails?If you compare to Manchester for example, coming into the centre from Prestwich & Whitefield (North Manc), the tram uses the old railway lines and therefore has its own reserved track and doesn’t need to use the road.Once you get to Piccadilly there is loads of space for them to manoeuvre around on their own reserved space and the buses go nowhere near them. That said they also don't go through town as the trams used to in Leeds, the cut around the edge so they presumably can used their own track and not clog the roads up. We don’t really have that luxury as Leeds is extremely compact with relatively narrow roads. There is simply nowhere to put reserved track so even if we got a tram surely it would still cause the same probs eventually as it would still use the same roads as buses or trolley buses.

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Fri 06 Jul, 2012 9:24 am

And I think you've pointed out another reason why the tramway is a great option for a city Lee, Leeds has old rail lines just waiting to be brought back into use too...The Leeds-Wetherby line taking in Pendas fields, Stanks, Swarcliffe, The A64 (park and ride) Scholes, Thorner and beyond. The Leeds-Castleford line with the villages of Garforth and Kippax e.t.c.Disused railway infrastructure already in place, the Holbeck viaduct, how much traffic jams would that by pass from the M621 at Elland Road? And with a park and ride for added bonus.The possibilities are endless. We really will have no chance of ever utilising these old lines with an integrated rail, and road light rail system if we settle for second best trolley bus. Manchester and Newcastle have proved how successful this system works and expands. L.C.C has no vision, and have the 'can't do' attitude, whilst all the time other cites are doing and leaving us way behind.

BLAKEY · Post by **BLAKEY** » Fri 06 Jul, 2012 9:47 am

I simply daren't write too much on this subject as I am, like Phill D Cardiarms and many others, absolutely furious that this expensive farce is to go ahead - although 2018 is in effect light years away yet - in fact I still have many promotional "giveaway" key rings, pencils and travel bags which heralded the forthcoming miracle of Supertram !!I'll just though put one or two thoughts forward though.Nobody in authority, either here or at Westminster, seems to grasp that the £200 million plus will NOT provide the City with a wonderful overall transport benefit - just over 8 miles of route is the proverbial "drop in the ocean" of the problem. Just for one instance, the section from Holt Park to City will still have to share the client base and traffic congestion with all the other bus services forom various suburbs and towns. Hopefully we shall never again see any fresh "guided bus lanes" - ugly, expensive, nerve wracking for passengers and not without "jumping out of the track" incidents, and causing people to have to choose between safe pavement loading on other services or crossing into the middle ONCE they can decipher what number bus it is as it approaches - the York Road stops between Selby Road junction and Asda being a prime example.To sum up, before I belt up, any successful trolleybus scheme must depend on those vehicles being responsible for virtually all the riding in a particular large "segment" of a city - a comparatively little "novelty" like this £200 million plus civic treat is only the very start of the cost !!

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Fri 06 Jul, 2012 9:54 am

Enough said,I think,on this particular thought provoking subject.................