Oldest route number still in use ...

simong · Post by **simong** » Sun 12 Jun, 2011 9:12 pm

72 was certainly the Leeds - Bradford route in early petrol bus days. There was even an express X72, as this Bradford bus stop sign at the National Trolleybus Centre at Sandtoft testifies. I assume it's a bus stop rather than trolley. http://db.tt/BVmORFH

BLAKEY · Post by **BLAKEY** » Mon 13 Jun, 2011 8:57 am

simong wrote: 72 was certainly the Leeds - Bradford route in early petrol bus days. There was even an express X72, as this Bradford bus stop sign at the National Trolleybus Centre at Sandtoft testifies. I assume it's a bus stop rather than trolley. http://db.tt/BVmORFH It is indeed a bus stop simong, and interesting because the "stick on" label for X72 will no doubt have become necessary when express services in Leeds and Bradford became "X" instead of "2**"Incidentally Leeds and Bradford commenced trolleybus operation (but never between the two cities) on the same day in 1915 - Leeds's three route system perished in 1928 while the superb Bradford electrics were the last in the Country in1972.

Patexpat · Post by **Patexpat** » Mon 13 Jun, 2011 10:14 am

simong wrote: 72 was certainly the Leeds - Bradford route in early petrol bus days. There was even an express X72, as this Bradford bus stop sign at the National Trolleybus Centre at Sandtoft testifies. I assume it's a bus stop rather than trolley. http://db.tt/BVmORFH Wasn't there also a 72 'limited stop' service that predated the express service? I remember the white illuminated signs at the front of the bus and by the entrance door?

D A Young · Post by **D A Young** » Mon 13 Jun, 2011 11:35 am

A limited numbering system for a few Leeds bus routes had been around since the mid-1930s, but Leeds Corporation bus routes were comprehensively numbered 31-77 from July 1937.1-30 were reserved for tram routes.Apart from tram-replacement buses, mainly given the original tram route number on all or part of their routes, other purely bus routes were numbered below 31 and above 77 in subsequent years, including pre-World War Two.Current First Bus bus routes 1, 2, 12 are former tram routes with recognisably their 1929 (tram) route numbersThe 11 Harehills via Beckett Street tram and the 19 Lower Wortley via Oldfield Road tram last ran on August 23 1946, replaced next day by the new 42 bus, the core of First's present 42 route.The direct through Leeds-Bradford bus service run by the two corporations (other companies ran Leeds-Bradford over the years, Ledgard in particular, but over different routes) began in December 1928, though Leeds buses didn't participate in this venture until the beginning of 1930. This service was numbered 72 in July 1937. There had been a through Leeds-Bradford tram service, despite the two different gauges. This ran between June 1909 and March 1918, though there was some experimental and sporadic public service with through cars from about April 1907. This was a popular, heavily-used service, taken off only because the equipment was worn out and couldn't be fixed up in a time of massive wartime shortages. Stories are that repairs were begun after the supply situation eased post-war, but the equipment itself was obsolete and the effort either petered out or was ordered stopped around 1920/21. As it was, through cars never ran again.At the same time, one or more of the Bradford trackless cars, converted to an electric lorry, made the very occasional through run into Leeds with cargo towards the end of World War One and into the very early 1920s. It used the tramway overhead and for its negative return used a skate in the tram rail-perfectly normal in those days on both the Leeds and Bradford trolleybus systems and most frequently used for depot and car works access as it saved having to put up an extra set of overhead wires solely for the negative return.Memories of this and the joint tram service were still fresh when the joint through motor bus service was proposed. Just as in tram days, the through service was in addition to the local tram service from Leeds to Stanningley and Pudsey on the Leeds side and from Bradford to Stanningley on the Bradford side. These local tram services were replaced in 1938 and 1942 respectively,though the remnants of each tram route, cut back to Stanningley and then Half Mile Line on the Leeds side and to Thornbury on the Bradford side, survived into the early 1950s.The 72 Leeds-Bradford bus service was heavily used from the outset, and remained so for decades. However, in recent years, I have no knowledge of how it's performing.It's always been in direct competition with the train service. The train was always speedier and more comfortable, but also more expensive, less convenient if you needed to get on or off at or close to specific streets en route (the bus and train terminii at both ends were always fairly close together), and infinitely dirtier in steam days.A. D. Young

BLAKEY · Post by **BLAKEY** » Mon 13 Jun, 2011 12:14 pm

Patexpat wrote: Wasn't there also a 72 'limited stop' service that predated the express service? I remember the white illuminated signs at the front of the bus and by the entrance door? There were indeed "LIMITED STOP" conditions on many Leeds bus routes, almost always during Monday to Friday peak periods and signified by the little signs being illuminated as necessary. The idea was a reasonable one, being intended to prevent long distance passengers being stranded when buses were full of shorter distance folk who had the choice of other unlimited services. I can say from experience though, that in the days of open platform buses there was a fair bit of intentional abuse by crafty folk who knew that they had every chance of baling out at their chosen location when the bus was picking up eligible people or was standing in traffic etc.

Patexpat · Post by **Patexpat** » Tue 14 Jun, 2011 4:53 pm

D. A. Young wrote: A limited numbering system for a few Leeds bus routes had been around since the mid-1930s, but Leeds Corporation bus routes were comprehensively numbered 31-77 from July 1937.1-30 were reserved for tram routes.Apart from tram-replacement buses, mainly given the original tram route number on all or part of their routes, other purely bus routes were numbered below 31 and above 77 in subsequent years, including pre-World War Two.Current First Bus bus routes 1, 2, 12 are former tram routes with recognisably their 1929 (tram) route numbersThe 11 Harehills via Beckett Street tram and the 19 Lower Wortley via Oldfield Road tram last ran on August 23 1946, replaced next day by the new 42 bus, the core of First's present 42 route.The direct through Leeds-Bradford bus service run by the two corporations (other companies ran Leeds-Bradford over the years, Ledgard in particular, but over different routes) began in December 1928, though Leeds buses didn't participate in this venture until the beginning of 1930. This service was numbered 72 in July 1937. There had been a through Leeds-Bradford tram service, despite the two different gauges. This ran between June 1909 and March 1918, though there was some experimental and sporadic public service with through cars from about April 1907. This was a popular, heavily-used service, taken off only because the equipment was worn out and couldn't be fixed up in a time of massive wartime shortages. Stories are that repairs were begun after the supply situation eased post-war, but the equipment itself was obsolete and the effort either petered out or was ordered stopped around 1920/21. As it was, through cars never ran again.At the same time, one or more of the Bradford trackless cars, converted to an electric lorry, made the very occasional through run into Leeds with cargo towards the end of World War One and into the very early 1920s. It used the tramway overhead and for its negative return used a skate in the tram rail-perfectly normal in those days on both the Leeds and Bradford trolleybus systems and most frequently used for depot and car works access as it saved having to put up an extra set of overhead wires solely for the negative return.Memories of this and the joint tram service were still fresh when the joint through motor bus service was proposed. Just as in tram days, the through service was in addition to the local tram service from Leeds to Stanningley and Pudsey on the Leeds side and from Bradford to Stanningley on the Bradford side. These local tram services were replaced in 1938 and 1942 respectively,though the remnants of each tram route, cut back to Stanningley and then Half Mile Line on the Leeds side and to Thornbury on the Bradford side, survived into the early 1950s.The 72 Leeds-Bradford bus service was heavily used from the outset, and remained so for decades. However, in recent years, I have no knowledge of how it's performing.It's always been in direct competition with the train service. The train was always speedier and more comfortable, but also more expensive, less convenient if you needed to get on or off at or close to specific streets en route (the bus and train terminii at both ends were always fairly close together), and infinitely dirtier in steam days.A. D. Young Thank you Mr. Young - fascinating stuff. I'm just a few years too young to remember trams in Bramley - although I do remember seeing the lines when uncovered by roadworks on Stanningley Road!

Patexpat · Post by **Patexpat** » Tue 14 Jun, 2011 4:56 pm

BLAKEY wrote: Patexpat wrote: Wasn't there also a 72 'limited stop' service that predated the express service? I remember the white illuminated signs at the front of the bus and by the entrance door? There were indeed "LIMITED STOP" conditions on many Leeds bus routes, almost always during Monday to Friday peak periods and signified by the little signs being illuminated as necessary. The idea was a reasonable one, being intended to prevent long distance passengers being stranded when buses were full of shorter distance folk who had the choice of other unlimited services. I can say from experience though, that in the days of open platform buses there was a fair bit of intentional abuse by crafty folk who knew that they had every chance of baling out at their chosen location when the bus was picking up eligible people or was standing in traffic etc. And I was a case in point - coming home from School we had to use the 65 route from The Headrow, rather than the 72 ... in fact as I type this I now wonder if our school passes actually prohibited us from the 72 route ... I have a feeling they did!

Terry M · Post by **Terry M** » Tue 14 Jun, 2011 6:59 pm

Hi,Regarding Limited Stop Services I remeber operating the service 23 from the Bus Station to Intake which ran limited during the teatime peak. It was a the cause of much fun and games on Burley Road with passengers trying to get off.On the topic of route numbers the 22 from Central Bus Stn to Temple Newsam has also been in use for some time.

D A Young · Post by **D A Young** » Wed 15 Jun, 2011 5:20 am

As far as I know, it's been a while since there was a service to Temple Newsam House, numbered 22 or anything else.First's current timetable/web site suggests the nearest you can get to the house nowadays on public transport is on an 18 Colton bus, and then almost a one mile walk uphill on Templenewsam Lane to the house. The tram and the original replacement bus service ran practically to the door. First's network web-site map shows a 63A service still doing so. But I can find no reference to it in First's timetables, unless it's now in the hands of another operator, and I don't know when First's bus service (ex Leeds PTE, ex Leeds City transport, ex tram) was cut back so brutally-unless it's now in the hands of another operator.On studying First's timetable/website more closely, I would add bus route 50 to the list of oldest route numbers still in use, at least for the portion west of the city centre running via Burley and Vesper Roads to Horsforth. It has run on roughly the same route since route numbers were introduced for all Leeds Corporation buses in July 1937 and 50 was Leeds-Horsforth.It might be argued that this bus was a partial replacement for the Burley Road trams, except that it was introduced early in January 1927. The Burley Road trams were abandoned on May 1 1937.It should also not be confused with the "main line" tram to Guiseley which served Hosforth (Old Ball), a different area, on its way to Rawdon, and its replacement bus service/s.The Limited Stop bus services were gradually introduced during 1950 on a small number of routes, including to Horsforth (the old 71 Guiseley via Horsforth and Rawdon tram replacement bus) but not the 50, presently under discussion. Over the decades they've been phased in and out again, sometimes in favour of the old Fastaway express buses, other times to their successors, but in whatever form they've never quite disappeared.A. D. Young

BLAKEY · Post by **BLAKEY** » Wed 15 Jun, 2011 9:46 am

D. A. Young wrote: It should also not be confused with the "main line" tram to Guiseley which served Hosforth (Old Ball), a different area, on its way to Rawdon, and its replacement bus service/s.A. D. Young With respect, the "main line" tram to Guiseley and its replacement bus services never deviated from the main road in Horsforth, and didn't/don't go anywhere near The Old Ball. The area of Horsforth served is purely on the main A65 road passing what was the Glenroyal Cinema (now a mini supermarket) and The Fleece pub.A fascinating twist though is that the 50 service DOES now serve the Old Ball following revisions and extensions in recent years, and approximately every other bus passes the Old Ball on the way to the present terminus at The Green (bottom of Town Street) while the others take a slightly shorter route up Broadgate Lane, passing the traditional terminus of the 50 and of the Leeds - Hawksworth Road - Horsforth service of Samuel Ledgard and successors.