Have Our Transport Planners Lost the Plot? (If indeed they ever found one)

[BLAKEY]

Leodian wrote: How do the fare dodgers get through the automatic ticket collecting mechanism at Leeds City Station or am I just being very naive in not seeing how they do it? I'm not looking for tips on how to do it as I'm too honest (and probably too scared) to fare dodge. No Leodian, with respect, I didn't mention Leeds or any other manned station - just those where a passenger boards and alights at intermediate stations where there are no facilities or personnel to pay. In many of these cases of course the passengers are not "dodgers" as such - there is simply no way to pay. More than once I've travelled from Headingley to Harrogate and never seen a sign of the conductor, having to go to the Harrogate booking office (if open up to 1900 I think) in order to pay. Needless to say, others have just drifted off happily free of charge. It is a widspread scandal - not helped of course by even the most conscientious conductor being hampered by the "steam age" ticket machines which are like watching the proverbial paint dry.This disgraceful situation is not of course confined to the Harrogate line, but exists openly on all the local lines out of Leeds. While queueing to pay at the pathetic little "bookies stalls" in Leeds one often hears others commenting that they've travelled from St Elmsall, Frizinghall, Ben Rhydding or wherever and never seen a sign of the conductor.

[tyke bhoy]

Leodian wrote: How do the fare dodgers get through the automatic ticket collecting mechanism at Leeds City Station or am I just being very naive in not seeing how they do it? I'm not looking for tips on how to do it as I'm too honest (and probably too scared) to fare dodge. I think Blakey is referring to people boarding and alighting at the unmanned stations Leodian. Although I do know the validation of tickets by the machines in Leeds is less than accurate anyway. Northern stated on Look North it was leeway immediately after implementation of the barriers which would be closed soon after. Well we are fast approaching the 2nd anniversary of their implementation and it still isn't working so I suspect they have a "duff" system.I hold an annual Company Metro card including Rail Zones 1 to 3. Because of this the Pass part of the card which was robust card board with proper ink issued by Metro has been replaced by the card Northern use for single leg tickets(you get two for return journeys) and ink from their ticket machines for barrier operation. I have had 4 of these in the last 18 months and the longest one lasted was 8 weeks (less than two months) before the ink has disappeared meaning the bus drivers and “ revenue officers” (conductors) on trains can’t read them. I therefore now get Metro to issue a replacement on the old card which isn’t machine readable. This is OK except Northerns operatives on the barriers insist on being mainly on the wrong side of the barrier for the majority of throughfare at the time and regularly are more interested in talking amongst themselves than letting passengers (customers) with non machine readable tickets through. So as an experiment I have tried using machine readable tickets I have had through work to get me through the barrier. I have successfully used date expired tickets to/from Manchester, Bristol and Liverpool to get through the barriers and the Bristol ticket was from Wakefield Westgate which should not have involved Leeds at all. please not while I used an invalid ticket at the barrier I have at all times been in possession of a valid ticket for my journey.

[gaz2]

Two points:-Leeds isn't the only UK city with horrific & worsening traffic problems. However, I have heard it said we are the largest city in Europe without a mass transport system. Zero chance of any change to that in the current climate so working smarter with what we have is the way forward (not much sign of that!).Second, I attended a meeting with some Leeds traffic planners to discuss the plans for the Leeds tram (it was a while back!). I was told "off the record" that it was policy to slow & snarl traffic in Leeds to disuade drivers for using their cars to travel to Leeds. This was to reduce congestion! They couldn't see the contradiction....

[dogduke]

When pay trains were first introduced in BR days the guards as they were then got commision on tcket sales around 5% I think.This and other bits and pieces were gradually consolidated into the basic pay(and pensions).O.K for the majority but if you rememberthe Harrogate guards whose only workwas pay trains were to lose out badly and refused to take fares for quite some time.The honesty boxes installed at some stations were not a success.Inthe early days of privatisation the Northern Spirit management seemd to run a very tight ship with conductors regarding appearance,attitude,safety procedures,uniform caps AND revenue protection.It would appear the present management have let go of the management/supervision of conductors badly.I have been on 4 trains this week,none of them over busy and have only seen the conductor emerge from the rear cab to open the doors at station stops.

[tyke bhoy]

Theories of snarling traffic to dissuade use of private vehicles are nothing new but as you point out they are pretty much self defeating if the intention is to encourage use of one type of public transport namely the bus. The current bottleneck on bishopgate street may persuade some car dirvers that an alternative route into Leeds is required however the passengers on the bus like their driver have no choice on the route. Seeing a bus also caught up in the snarl up is not going to persuade a car driver “I must go by bus tomorrow”. Its also a classic “chicken and egg”. Buses are not going to be more punctual and reliable until there is less traffic on the road but the only way to get less traffic on the road is to persuade car drivers to use the bus which they won’t as they see it as being unpunctual and unreliable

[Leodian]

Thanks Blakey and tyke bhoy for clearing up that query of mine. I had assumed that the passengers were travelling to Leeds City Station. I really must stop assuming things!

[jim]

Hi Blakey. I see you refer to "steam age ticket machines". Do you refer to the current variety which are lightweight electronic, computer-styled, battery operated, and which issue tickets from anywhere to anywhere, with magnetic strip tickets to allow automatic ticket barriers to be used, and appear to be tamperproof so far as staff are concerned? The previous machines were of the "Almex" variety, which I'm sure you must have come across in your previous career. They had none of the features I enumerate. In particular, boy could they be tampered with! They had one saving grace. They issued a ticket instantly..........By the way, in a previous existence I spent a few years maintaining B.R.s Almex machines

[jim]

Nice to see the city planners arrange a link ( nudge,nudge ) between two of our threads. Work on the White Cloth Hall has meant the closing of Kirkgate..........with traffic diverted to the bottom of Briggate by an earlier section of the very Link Road concerning this thread!

[raveydavey]

tyke bhoy wrote: Theories of snarling traffic to dissuade use of private vehicles are nothing new but as you point out they are pretty much self defeating if the intention is to encourage use of one type of public transport namely the bus. The current bottleneck on bishopgate street may persuade some car dirvers that an alternative route into Leeds is required however the passengers on the bus like their driver have no choice on the route. Seeing a bus also caught up in the snarl up is not going to persuade a car driver “I must go by bus tomorrow”. Its also a classic “chicken and egg”. Buses are not going to be more punctual and reliable until there is less traffic on the road but the only way to get less traffic on the road is to persuade car drivers to use the bus which they won’t as they see it as being unpunctual and unreliable Except now I strongly suspect our civic leaders have their beady eyes set on introducing a Congestion Charge for all private vehicles entering the city centre.Don't forget that this was the issue that many credit with getting the Labour administration voted out of controlling the council a few years ago.The thing with Bispogate Street is that there isn't a realistic alternative - I think there are signs directing through traffic along Water Lane onto Whitehall Road, then back towards the city centre before turning up Northern Street(?) and onto Wellington Street, but that is hardly a suitable route for the amount of traffic that needs to go that way and is also crippled by a selection of poorly sequenced traffic lights.

[Loiner1960]

Bishopgate Street. Remember the days when traffic went both ways? City Square is a mess regarding traffic and the Loop is hopeless. For a few cyclists the number 1 bus stop will go. Now how long has that been a stop? At least 40 years if not more. The Rotunda is a cycle thingy Arrgh!! And the policy of Leeds City Council is to reduce parking spaces and increase the cost of parking to FORCE people to use private/public transport. When major roads, Briggate and The Headrow are pedestrianized or restricted, cars don't disappear, the roads just have to cope with an increased traffic volume. Bring back the Monorail..Rant over.http://www.leodis.org/display.aspx?reso ... 129_165946