Leeds in the 1870s

[dogduke]

Excellent !Welcome back...................................One or two expressions you have used in posts sound verymuch like things we say now,having read though all the threadour terminlogy is closely related - we have company(visitors/guests)here but is it common elsewhere ?

[Dakota]

Not certain - maybe the use of it in my family came down through Sarah? Have just always used it.

[cnosni]

Dakota wrote: Have had company all of July so haven't had the pleasure of being able to login and do anything. I definitely was going through withdrawal, but I'm back.After going to the church service in Minnesota in June, I did have a moment to follow up on a remark I heard there and found a crime report on an Olaf T. Engebretson from Allamakee County, Iowa and determined it was the same Olaf T. Engebretson that married my great aunt, Anna. Turns out Big Ole as we like to call him, was spurned by a woman in Allamakee County - her parents knew him to be a no good, shiftless, worthless fellow and convinced her to break up with him - so he showed up at the school where she taught with his shotgun and insisted on a farewell kiss and tried to bite off her nose, maiming the young lady. Then several weeks later he came back with a pistol and the young lady was saved by another man being at the school where she taught. He spent a year in the county jail and it looks like he was then shipped back to Norway and came back a year later and settled in southern Minnesota and 5 years later married Anna. After a number of children, it appears that Anna left him and went with her father and all her children to northern Minnesota and Big Ole stayed in Rose Dell and became a boarder doing odd jobs. So it's got me wondering how she got the courage to leave him or if he was perhaps incarcerated at the time and she just picked up and left since her mother had died in the fire and her father was moving north to be with other family.I did find the homestead that my great grandparents settled and took a picture of my feet standing on the corner of it. I go for the easy thrills.But I do want to get back to the mystery of the Earl and why a simple coal miner and his wife might have been invited to a ceremony involving him. Barlick Girl has found a Wells relative - John - in the descendant list that we are going to try and track down. So, I'm back in the saddle again and going to start poking and delving and posting what I find and what I've got questions about. The Earl in question i noticed is shown as being of Wortley.Though there is an are in Leeds called Wortley i would think that it applies to Wortley which was in the West Riding of Yorkshire but is now in the administrative are of South Yorkshire,near Barnsley.This Wortley would seem to be the more approriate one as it was also a registration place for births deaths and marriages,whereas Wortley in Leeds was not.With the distance between Bradford and Barnsley being quite large (for the times) then i would be very surprised a family in Bradford would have connections with Barnsley,and to that end with someone far far far up the social ladder as the Earl concerned.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wortley_HallEven to this day the two closest Earls ive been near to are Earl Grey and the Earl of Harwood on match of the day hilights from Elland Road

[barlickgirl]

Interestingly cnosi, Annie also wrote down on the same piece of paper that we were descended from King Henry VIII. Now that does seems ridiculous on the surface of it, but I always think there's often at least a little piece of truth in family folklore and Annie was Sarah and Henry's daughter after all, so close to the "horses mouth" so to speak. She was the first of there children to be born in the USA and so may have been more curious about the different background that they came from.As a result I googled "Tudor Wells Earl of Wharncliffe" and up pops the Tudor family tree with a (Rev) John Wells on it (we have a couple on our family tree in our direct line of descent). His son Charles Auguste Este Wells married into the Tudor family. I have a Charles Auguste Wells in my family tree, not the same one, but it's enough of a coincidence to make me think that this research is worth pursuing and that we'll find a link somewhere along the chain.Cheers!

[cnosni]

barlickgirl wrote: Interestingly cnosi, Annie also wrote down on the same piece of paper that we were descended from King Henry VIII. Now that does seems ridiculous on the surface of it, but I always think there's often at least a little piece of truth in family folklore and Annie was Sarah and Henry's daughter after all, so close to the "horses mouth" so to speak. She was the first of there children to be born in the USA and so may have been more curious about the different background that they came from.As a result I googled "Tudor Wells Earl of Wharncliffe" and up pops the Tudor family tree with a (Rev) John Wells on it (we have a couple on our family tree in our direct line of descent). His son Charles Auguste Este Wells married into the Tudor family. I have a Charles Auguste Wells in my family tree, not the same one, but it's enough of a coincidence to make me think that this research is worth pursuing and that we'll find a link somewhere along the chain.Cheers! What you have to remember is that with a surname like Wells,one of which i am descended from,usually applies to the town near Bristol,which is where my Wells came from.It is more than likely that at some point in the past that one of your male ancestors would have either been born in Wells or moved there.Occasionally you also get servants taking the surname of their master,it was a way of almost showing ownership by the mnaster of his servantsThe assuming of surnames was something that occured when the population was expanding and the wheels of governance required more in the way of personal accountingPeople would make their surname from their profession as in Smith,or from association with their job ie Monkman for a lay brother at a monastry, or simply as "son of" as in Jackson (Jack's-son)Wilson (Will's son) and also purely and simply from their place of abode, for example Richard of Wells would eventually be simply Richard Wells.Interstingly the stubborn descendants of the Angles and Vikings across a wide swathe of northern England from the east coast of Yorkshire to Cumbria were one of the last areas where surnames were adopted.In this instance they folowed the Scandanavian principle of "son of",hence the huge numer of people in Yorkshire with the "son" suffix.I recently did a bit of research for my in laws,though they are from Liverpool there was believed to be an American connection,even down to a family story that one of their forebares was born on a sioux reservation.Well i did some digging and could prove that the entire line was in Liverpool way back from 1841 and earlier,and that the person who the family tale said was born in America was born and registered in Bootle.In my own family therew as a story taht my great grandfather was on one of the ships that escorted Scott of the Antarctic on his ill fated mission.Problem is is that despite the fact that he had a sea going connection to cold places (he was a deep sea fisherman out of Scarborough that fished off Iceland in the 1890's) he was in fact living in Leeds at the time of the expedition withhis own ice cream business.This family tale came from my mother and her sisters,when i told them the truth they were disappointed,though they genuineley believed it,so someone ,somewhere has convinced them it was the truth.They didnt speak to me for 6 months!!

[dogduke]

Don't know if there is a connection,Wortley/Barnsley but upto the rush of pit closures following the NUM strikesthere was a pit called Wharncliffe woodmoor 4&5 whichif I remember was in the Royston area.Were they mine owners as well ?

[barlickgirl]

dogduke wrote: Don't know if there is a connection,Wortley/Barnsley but upto the rush of pit closures following the NUM strikesthere was a pit called Wharncliffe woodmoor 4&5 whichif I remember was in the Royston area.Were they mine owners as well ? Hi dogduke,That's an interesting question about owning the mine. Not that we can tell, but we do have an Isaac Wells b. 1752ish who is spoken about in the Cudworth book 'The History of Bowling'. He was called the "the trusty agent of Sir Francis Lindley Wood". Isaac was connected to the iron mines around Rooley Lane in Bradford. Dakota's Henry and my James were coal miners a few generations later and quite a few of the Coultas and Wells boys were hurriers as children. It does seem though that Isaac was a well respected individual who had a particular talent for finding new iron deposits in the ground. We are descended from his son John Wells. Who knows what favours he was bestowed as a result of that talent.There really does seem to be more to uncover with this particular family line!regards,barlickgirl

[barlickgirl]

Hi cnosni,I take your point with the family stories. My Granny from my Scottish side used to tell people that she was descended from John Knox the great reformer. I asked her once when I was older, just how were we related. She said she didn't know that we were, but it made it more interesting for people who asked about her family because they'd all heard of John Knox. I have since researched the Knox family and can't find any connection at all.The Wells lot are really interesting though as links crop up everywhere, they were prolific breeders down through 2 centuries. The Charles Auguste Wells i have in my tree had a sister Rosa, who had an illegitimate daughter, Winifred Rose Wells. She is seemingly unrelated to our Wells line. She was born down south but she married Lawrence Coultas, nephew of Dakota's Sarah and my Martha, in Bradford. I have a newspaper clipping of her wedding and bridesmaids were reportedly a Miss Saville and a Miss Walker. An Elizabeth Coultas and a Mary Wells from our families both married a Saville and an Elizabeth Wells married a Walker. So there must have been a connection I just can't see it yet.I also have a random newspaper clipping sent to my Dad 30 years ago from my Gt Aunt from another family line. This story was about a Ben Wells who was visiting his Aunt Alice Sowden from the USA. dad had no idea who he was or why she'd sent it. On the surface, there was not connection until I discovered that ALice's Mother was Clara Sowden nee Wells the first cousin to Henry and James. So I'm convinced there's more than meets the eye to Annie's note, just what that is I'm not sure yet.Cheers,Jill

[Dakota]

And there is a pair of brass candlesticks that I had to polish quite a bit as a child that supposedly came from someone important in England that got handed down to the eldest son and being that my father was the only son, he got them and my brother now has them. Never quite understood who gave them to the family or when, or their signifigance but let me tell you they are a hot item in the family...... second only to the Ayleworth china dog which I have.Also, talked with my remaining aunt and broke the news that there was no Lady Anne and she said she remembered growing up as a child thinking that there was a big house over in England and that there was a clock she was supposed to receive that was in that house. Given that Sarah and my grandmother were very down to earth, common sense kind of gals, Aunt Shirley and I have wondered what that's about. The big house could be Sycamore Villa where Sarah's brother Fred Coultas lived - he managed to become a mine manager and in comparison to how much of the rest of the family fared, definitely pulled himself up the rung.When Henry and Sarah visited England in the 19 teens, I think around 1912 or 1913, her siblings bought her a lovely tea set, of which I have one of the tea cups. My grandmother received the tea set when Sarah died and she divided the set up amongst her three daughters and the one that got the tea cups lost both of her daughters so she gave each niece and granddaughter a tea cup.So more things to try and figure out what the story is - perhaps something through Fred Coultas??

[cnosni]

Hi BarlickgirlIm a bit mixed up you said that the Charles Auguste Wells i have in my tree had a sister Rosa, who had an illegitimate daughter, Winifred Rose Wells. She is seemingly unrelated to our Wells line.As Charles Auguste Wells is in your tree,and therefore is a relation of yours ,then why would his sisters illegitimate daughter be unrelated to your Wells line?Or am i reading it wrong,it wouldnt be the first time id done that.