Post Office Robberies

[Si]

The only time I had to pick someone out, there wasn't an ID parade as such. Just a book of mug-shots. I picked the wrong bloke, so nowt happened. However, it wasn't easy to identify him, as I was looking at his face through a windscreen I was trying to smash with the back of my fist whilst kneeling on a car bonnet accelerating up the street. I remember him changing into second. That's when I jumped off. It's a long story! Concussion and twelve stitches in the back of my head. Ouch!The police recovered an abandoned, stolen white Astra van with a punched-in screen, but as I understandably didn't get the complete reg number, they couldn't prove it was the same vehicle!

[Keg]

On a similar note, i worked for one of the large record shops in Leeds in the mid-late eighties, and after aprehending a credit card thief, I had to go down to Milgarth to identify him from a book of mug shots.Whilst looking through, i recognised two people, one of whom was the girlfriend of a colleague i worked with!.

[blackprince]

iansmithofotley wrote: Trojan wrote: The Black Panther,(Donald Neilson) did a number of Post Offices in the North and Midlands in the early seventies. In fact I think he was caught while doing one in Mansfield. He was also apparently the notorious "brace and bit" burglar who did quite a few homes in Gildersome in the late sixties too . Hi Trojan,The 'brace and bit' method of committing burglary was used by quite a lot of criminals. The main man in the Leeds area, during the 1960's, was called Fowler, who did hundreds, and was the most prolific of them all. Ian. Ian, when I was a pupil at West Leeds in Armley abt 1965 the Physics lab was broken into by drilling around the door lock with a brace & bit ( much easier nowadays with a cordless drill!). The culprit was a fellow pupil who was caught after trying to sell a bottle of mercury stolen from the lab to a scrap metal merchant, and he disappeared never to be seen again. There was a bit more to the story, in that his father was a senior policeman actually working on a series of similar break-ins. Does this case ring any bells? No need to mention names - I can't remember the name anyway.

[iansmithofotley]

Blackprince said:Ian, when I was a pupil at West Leeds in Armley abt 1965 the Physics lab was broken into by drilling around the door lock with a brace & bit ( much easier nowadays with a cordless drill!). The culprit was a fellow pupil who was caught after trying to sell a bottle of mercury stolen from the lab to a scrap metal merchant, and he disappeared never to be seen again. There was a bit more to the story, in that his father was a senior policeman actually working on a series of similar break-ins. Does this case ring any bells? No need to mention names - I can't remember the name anyway. Hi Blackprince,I am sorry but I have no knowledge of the case or the Burglary. In 1965, I was a uniform PC at Upper Wortley P.S. and covered the school. I will have known the boy's father but I can't recollect anything without a name. Unfortunately, no kids are perfect and coppers' kids are just the same as any others despite their upbringing and the occupations of their parents. It does cause a lot of embarrassment when they get into trouble.Most of the brace and bit jobs were done on wooden windows near to the locks. After the hole was drilled, an instrument, wire or cord was inserted in order to move the locking mechanism.Often, criminals used the same method to commit their crimes, such as the brace and bit method of burglary. This is why the M.O. (modus operandi) was recorded on their criminal records/criminal intelligence files. In any case, the experienced detectives always got to know who did what, so certain people who used similar M.O.'s would come into the frame if a particular method was used. The problem was trying to find out who had done what and trying to get the evidence to prove it. Burglars got reputations such as a 'brace and bit man', 'cellar grate man', 'peter man', 'blagger', etc, etc., all down to their M.O.In those days, local detectives got lots of information from informants. We used to have a saying "Your last prisoner is your next informant". Again, in those days, there was lots of 'wheeling and dealing' went on in relation to charges, bail, offences to be taken into consideration, etc. If prisoners were treated well, and looked after, despite their crimes, then there was always a chance that we would get a 'job' out of them or they would become an informant.This is another reason why we spent a lot of our time in pubs and clubs, mixing with the local villains and talking to other people, particularly licencees (who often knew what was going on) and dealers (most of whom were villains anyway). In my experience, there was a better rapport between the Police and villains in those days. As detectives, we used to get an allowance for paying informants and also some expenses. Unless a large amount of money was needed to pay an informant, no records were kept. Things changed when all informants had to be registered with the force. This came about because of corruption in certain forces, particularly the Met. It meant that local detectives could not operate in the same way. A good detective would never divulge the name of an informant - even to his colleagues, so very few registered informants with the force.Times have changed. Locally, it started with the amalgamation of Police Forces, particularly in 1974, when Leeds City Police became part of the West Yorkshire force and there were staff changes in and out of Leeds and the hierarchy was all in Wakefield. Then we got the creation of the Crown Prosecution Service in 1985 along with P.A.C.E. (Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984). Then we got Home Office Circular 114/1983 which dealt with Police efficiency, effectiveness, accountability and manpower. Things have just gone downhill ever since. It has been made worse by the 'do-gooders', government interference, political correctness, etc., and the fact that the Police seem to have lost a lot of their discretion at all levels from the bottom to the top. I am just so pleased that I had the opportunity to serve in the force prior to all of this stuff being introduced, and I could use my discretion. Also, until 1983 there was very little going on with regard to 'targets' which is partly why discretion has diminished. Targets, red tape and unnecessary paperwork (due to the C.P.S., lawyers and the government) have meant that there is now not enough time for 'proper' police work.Sorry for the rant but I feel really sickened about what has happened to the Police, and the poor service that they have provided, in recent years. I am just glad that I am out of it and am in my fifteenth year of retirement. I feel really sorry for the ones that are serving today, albeit most of them will not know of the great job that it once was.Ian.     

[Cardiarms]

Aye, the good old days:http://seorant.ath.cx/police/ladybird.html

[iansmithofotley]

Cardiarms wrote: Aye, the good old days:http://seorant.ath.cx/police/ladybird.html Hi Cardiarms,It's hilarious but, sadly, a lot of it is true.Ian.

[dogduke]

Cardiarms wrote: Aye, the good old days:http://seorant.ath.cx/police/ladybird.html Excellent little read that 'book'I have recently read Bruce Renolds the Great Train RobberbiographyThere seemed to be plenty of corruption in the ' met ' in the sixties.It mentions somewhere in the book that the most efficient forces were the ones that caught more crooks than they employed !!

[blackprince]

iansmithofotley wrote: Blackprince said:Ian, when I was a pupil at West Leeds in Armley abt 1965 the Physics lab was broken into by drilling around the door lock with a brace & bit ( much easier nowadays with a cordless drill!). The culprit was a fellow pupil who was caught after trying to sell a bottle of mercury stolen from the lab to a scrap metal merchant, and he disappeared never to be seen again. There was a bit more to the story, in that his father was a senior policeman actually working on a series of similar break-ins. Does this case ring any bells? No need to mention names - I can't remember the name anyway. Hi Blackprince,I am sorry but I have no knowledge of the case or the Burglary. In 1965, I was a uniform PC at Upper Wortley P.S. and covered the school. I will have known the boy's father but I can't recollect anything without a name. Unfortunately, no kids are perfect and coppers' kids are just the same as any others despite their upbringing and the occupations of their parents. It does cause a lot of embarrassment when they get into trouble.Most of the brace and bit jobs were done on wooden windows near to the locks. After the hole was drilled, an instrument, wire or cord was inserted in order to move the locking mechanism.Often, criminals used the same method to commit their crimes, such as the brace and bit method of burglary. This is why the M.O. (modus operandi) was recorded on their criminal records/criminal intelligence files. In any case, the experienced detectives always got to know who did what, so certain people who used similar M.O.'s would come into the frame if a particular method was used. The problem was trying to find out who had done what and trying to get the evidence to prove it. Burglars got reputations such as a 'brace and bit man', 'cellar grate man', 'peter man', 'blagger', etc, etc., all down to their M.O.In those days, local detectives got lots of information from informants. We used to have a saying "Your last prisoner is your next informant". Again, in those days, there was lots of 'wheeling and dealing' went on in relation to charges, bail, offences to be taken into consideration, etc. If prisoners were treated well, and looked after, despite their crimes, then there was always a chance that we would get a 'job' out of them or they would become an informant.This is another reason why we spent a lot of our time in pubs and clubs, mixing with the local villains and talking to other people, particularly licencees (who often knew what was going on) and dealers (most of whom were villains anyway). In my experience, there was a better rapport between the Police and villains in those days. As detectives, we used to get an allowance for paying informants and also some expenses. Unless a large amount of money was needed to pay an informant, no records were kept. Things changed when all informants had to be registered with the force. This came about because of corruption in certain forces, particularly the Met. It meant that local detectives could not operate in the same way. A good detective would never divulge the name of an informant - even to his colleagues, so very few registered informants with the force.Times have changed. Locally, it started with the amalgamation of Police Forces, particularly in 1974, when Leeds City Police became part of the West Yorkshire force and there were staff changes in and out of Leeds and the hierarchy was all in Wakefield. Then we got the creation of the Crown Prosecution Service in 1985 along with P.A.C.E. (Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984). Then we got Home Office Circular 114/1983 which dealt with Police efficiency, effectiveness, accountability and manpower. Things have just gone downhill ever since. It has been made worse by the 'do-gooders', government interference, political correctness, etc., and the fact that the Police seem to have lost a lot of their discretion at all levels from the bottom to the top. I am just so pleased that I had the opportunity to serve in the force prior to all of this stuff being introduced, and I could use my discretion. Also, until 1983 there was very little going on with regard to 'targets' which is partly why discretion has diminished. Targets, red tape and unnecessary paperwork (due to the C.P.S., lawyers and the government) have meant that there is now not enough time for 'proper' police work.Sorry for the rant but I feel really sickened about what has happened to the Police, and the poor service that they have provided, in recent years. I am just glad that I am out of it and am in my fifteenth year of retirement. I feel really sorry for the ones that are serving today, albeit most of them will not know of the great job that it once was.Ian.      Thanks for your reply Ian,I didn't know the lad concerned very well, so can't remember his name. He was a bit of a loner and a bit odd. I can remember feeling sorry that he let his parents down so badly and screwed up his own future, because this happened in the year before his A levels.Don't apologise for the rant - I enjoyed reading it. Always interesting to hear the real behind-the-scenes story from someone who was actually there - rather then the spin we always hear nowadays. Cheers,BP

[Middleton Sheriff]

I love reading the posts from iansmithofotley, Ian you have a far better memory than me.I recall during the seventies a short series of robberies by a serving police officer, a big lad called ( I think ) Colin Budd. He was eventually caught in the act in Harrogate. I think he was on Task Force at the time.I too have happy memories of serving or perhaps that's just the drunken haze!!Gene Hunt could have been based on Dennis West, even the same camel coat!!

[iansmithofotley]

Hi Middleton Sheriff,I knew Colin Budd but not very well. I never worked with him. From memory, he was about 6' 4' and around 18 stones. My best description of him would be 'a plonker, full of his own importance and with a loud voice'. Some people thought that he was handy to have around because of his size, particularly in Rent-a-Mob (Task Force). In the end he turned out to be just that - a 'plonker', hence the crimes that he committed. I hate stuff like that as it affects the reputation of us all no matter how good a job we do/did. He got his just desserts and went to jail.I always found Dennis West to be a gentleman. He was a D.I. and (I think) a D.C.I. when I was a D.S. His son, Richard, was a P.C. on my shift at Holbeck. He had been in Traffic and returned to Uniform to get more experience so that he could get promoted. He was an excellent officer and deserved promoting but the organisation brought in a new assessment system for promotion and he had difficulty in passing it. He would have made a cracking sergeant. He was also very useful to have on the shift as he was an excellent cross country runner and nobody got away from him.Unfortunately, I don't know whether or not Dennis is still alive. He always lived in the Rothwell area and after he retired I think that he used to breed Airedale Terriers for a hobby. Like many of us, Dennis had lots of time for people that worked hard but did not suffer fools gladly. I had alot of respect for him.Ian