Coal Mining in East Leeds

[The Parksider]

The Parksider wrote: chameleon wrote: Parksider:Cnosni has come up with an interesting site involving Tithe maps. Have a look at this map Thoughts?     The "cynder hills" shown in burts book is alongside the wyke beck several hundred yards from the foundry mill. It is evidence of iron founding. If this is slag from the foundry process in such a great pile, then did an older mill exist closer to the wyke beck, and was that the one fed by the tudor dam and watercourse????? I'm a saddo quoting my own post, but today I could not resist another walk down the beck. (green and black iron slags can be found making up the old path alongside the beck).In 1577 Christopher Mather built a dam at Ellers close in Roundhay, Ellers close lodge today sits on the hill on north lane above where Thorpes map depicts a body of water by the wyke beck behind todays goats milk cottage. That oval is depicted again on OS maps of the 1800's, albeit smaller (as though it was drying up, like the watercourse)Mathers is noted in records as "bringing his carts and drays from (his mill in)seacroft to roundhay to service the dam". That a dam sits half a mile or more away from it's likely associated Mill is of no matter. Hazen states "A race may be from a few feet to miles depending on the distance from the dam to the mill.Mathers got permission for a dam at Ellers close but it did not matter to him that it was half a mile away from the foundry area, as long as it guaranteed a good supply of water.I say area because when you look at the leat/mill race/watercourse that is depicted on the OS maps as splitting from the Wyke at Asket Hill and heading down the east side of wyke valley, it does not get to the Foundry Mill of the 19th. Century, only to the area of that mill.Looking at where it stops and looking at the site and elevation of the mill ponds I cannot see how that watercourse could ever have fed those ponds. Water does not flow upwards.On to the history of iron foundries in Sussex where the record states that when foundry works were abandoned the building stone was taken and the sites reverted to nature and "only the tell tale slag is left to remind us".Taylors map of 1803 marks a large mound of that tell tale slag alongside the wyke below Foxwood farm, several hundred yards from rhe 18/19C Foundry Mill (Cynder hills). I can only deduce that the slag mound is a tell tale sign of an earlier mill by the wyke, fed by Mathers dam and watercourse which never went near to the later Foundry Mill to my mind. It would have dropped down to the beck, on it's way turning a waterwheel on an earlier Mill sited at Cynder Hills.Around 1500 water power was first introduced to iron foundries, to drive the first blast furnaces which improved iron production. At this time the iron mines at roundhay had become exhausted, but the iron mines of the "ironhills" of seacroft may have started to come into their own.Thus Mathers project was probably to take ore from the new mines, that were deeper into Leeds coalfield in seacroft, and with the use of water power and a blast furnace provide Leeds with a higher output of Iron than ever seen before.I'd guess Mathers (suggested) 16C. Mill by the beck was a simple affair with an undershot waterwheel that produced Iron for many years before it was dismantled and a new 18C. Mill was then built several hundred yards away, the site being the one we can see on maps.

[grumpytramp]

I have just re-read all the most recent threads on Foundary Mill having had a look at the area on the New Popular Edition maps website see http://www.npemap.org.uk/tiles/map.html#434,436,1This clearly shows that as late as 1947 a watercourse leading from the east of Fox Wood towards Foundry Mill on the alignment shown on the excellent Leeds Tithe Map Project's website http://www.tracksintime.wyjs.org.uk/tra ... croft.htmA cursory examination of the topography confirms to me that this must be a mill leat, as watercourses rarely traverse along a contour!So what was the purpose of the weirs at Ellers Close?Despite not being party to the source material regarding Mathers, I think that Parksider is getting close with his analysis in his last post.When I look at the First Edition OS 1:10,560 plan (http://www.old-maps.co.uk) the most striking feature about Wyke Beck is that upstream of the current position of Easterly Road the beck meanders about the valley bottom but then downstream it is a linear feature till meanders reappear downstream near Low Gipton. This is clearly an artificial course for Wyke Beck, without any apparent contemporary (1850's) mills making use of it and was a considerable undertaking.I am of the opinion that the water course has been straightened from its original course (see the eccentric alignment of the field boundary to the east) and that it has been used for an industrial process. The location of Fox Wood Farm is interesting at the confluence of the modified Wyke Beck and Arthurs Rein (note the pond to the immediate north) an ideal location for a mill?I am also of the opinion that the purpose of this industrial activity can be garnered from the local geology ........... a substantial outcrop to the immediate east of current position of Easterly Road of the Black Band coal and ironstone. The Black Band is a regionally important resource, as it provided the richest iron ore in the West Riding (see the extensive Low Moor iron workings south of Bradford which also worked the Black Band).The Wyke Beck valley here must have been very attractive for the medieval and pre-industrial revolution iron masters with a happy trinity of coal (the Black Band was typically 2’ to 3’ of high quality coal), ironstone (nodules or nodular bands of ironstone in the overlaying mudstone roof of the Black Band coal perhaps totalling 1’ to 2’ thickness in up to 6’ of mustone/shale) and water powerIt is my suspicion that the Wyke Beck was engineered with a combination of straightening, leats and weirs to provide water power for other foundary mills probably in the vicinity of Fox Wood FarmPS Parkie, I haven't forgotten about your question about fireclay/ironstone workings in the Waterloo Main thread!    

[The Parksider]

grumpytramp wrote: I have just re-read all the most recent threads on Foundary Mill having had a look at the area on the New Popular Edition maps website see http://www.npemap.org.uk/tiles/map.html#434,436,1This clearly shows that as late as 1947 a watercourse leading from the east of Fox Wood towards Foundry Mill on the alignment shown on the excellent Leeds Tithe Map Project's website http://www.tracksintime.wyjs.org.uk/tra ... croft.htmA cursory examination of the topography confirms to me that this must be a mill leat, as watercourses rarely traverse along a contour!So what was the purpose of the weirs at Ellers Close?Despite not being party to the source material regarding Mathers, I think that Parksider is getting close with his analysis in his last post.When I look at the First Edition OS 1:10,560 plan (http://www.old-maps.co.uk) the most striking feature about Wyke Beck is that upstream of the current position of Easterly Road the beck meanders about the valley bottom but then downstream it is a linear feature till meanders reappear downstream near Low Gipton. This is clearly an artificial course for Wyke Beck, without any apparent contemporary (1850's) mills making use of it and was a considerable undertaking.I am of the opinion that the water course has been straightened from its original course (see the eccentric alignment of the field boundary to the east) and that it has been used for an industrial process. The location of Fox Wood Farm is interesting at the confluence of the modified Wyke Beck and Arthurs Rein (note the pond to the immediate north) an ideal location for a mill?I am also of the opinion that the purpose of this industrial activity can be garnered from the local geology ........... a substantial outcrop to the immediate east of current position of Easterly Road of the Black Band coal and ironstone. The Black Band is a regionally important resource, as it provided the richest iron ore in the West Riding (see the extensive Low Moor iron workings south of Bradford which also worked the Black Band).The Wyke Beck valley here must have been very attractive for the medieval and pre-industrial revolution iron masters with a happy trinity of coal (the Black Band was typically 2’ to 3’ of high quality coal), ironstone (nodules or nodular bands of ironstone in the overlaying mudstone roof of the Black Band coal perhaps totalling 1’ to 2’ thickness in up to 6’ of mustone/shale) and water powerIt is my suspicion that the Wyke Beck was engineered with a combination of straightening, leats and weirs to provide water power for other foundary mills probably in the vicinity of Fox Wood FarmPS Parkie, I haven't forgotten about your question about fireclay/ironstone workings in the Waterloo Main thread!     Always a pleasure to hear from you and your expertise in these matters.The Mathers references were obtaind by Stephen Burt from the WY archive services.Mike Gill as you'll know uses such archives to see if there is anything (just a single reference can indicate the existence of a mine or mill) to support on the ground evidence.One day I will have a really good trawl to see if I can find anything. I suspect like most people I assume all local history has been researched fully and interpteted accuratelyBut I cannot see the mathers mill of the late 1500's being the Foundry Mill of the early 20th. Century. I could see how references to a foundry in archives could always be assumed to be the same foundry all through the years.Again back to lead smelting in the dales and in places like old gang grovebeck, Marrick and clints, remains of several mills on the same site/stream have been found showing how in the metal extraction industry they thought nothing of pulling an older mill down and building a newer one.So that's the logic of my bet on this.

[The Parksider]

grumpytramp wrote: It is my suspicion that the Wyke Beck was engineered with a combination of straightening, leats and weirs to provide water power for other foundary mills probably in the vicinity of Fox Wood Farm Walking the beck there is a weir probably around the foxwood farm/cynder hills area.The beck is nothing nowadays and the weir is nothing much to look at, but I do recall looking at it and thinking "what earthly purpose has that got, why should someone build that into such a small stream".The idea that it is the remains of a weir for accelerating water feed to a wheel in a pre 1800 mill is exciting. I'll have a look and maybe take a camera......

[chameleon]

The Parksider wrote: grumpytramp wrote: It is my suspicion that the Wyke Beck was engineered with a combination of straightening, leats and weirs to provide water power for other foundary mills probably in the vicinity of Fox Wood Farm Walking the beck there is a weir probably around the foxwood farm/cynder hills area.The beck is nothing nowadays and the weir is nothing much to look at, but I do recall looking at it and thinking "what earthly purpose has that got, why should someone build that into such a small stream".The idea that it is the remains of a weir for accelerating water feed to a wheel in a pre 1800 mill is exciting. I'll have a look and maybe take a camera...... I'm sure there didn't used to be anything there. Not unlike days long past, considerable work was done to parts of the beck whilst we were at school, and subsequently, I suspect because of the minor flooding which did occur from time to time along this 'flattened'stretch - maybe connected?The thought that there was/were earlie mills is more than logical and probably expected as the land and resources changed over theyears and goes someway to explaining the unexpected and discontinuous water courses as you say.

[The Parksider]

chameleon wrote: The Parksider wrote: grumpytramp wrote: It is my suspicion that the Wyke Beck was engineered with a combination of straightening, leats and weirs to provide water power for other foundary mills probably in the vicinity of Fox Wood Farm The beck is nothing nowadays and the weir is nothing much to look at, but I do recall looking at it and thinking "what earthly purpose has that got, why should someone build that into such a small stream". I'm sure there didn't used to be anything there. Not unlike days long past, considerable work was done to parts of the beck whilst we were at school, and subsequently, I suspect because of the minor flooding which did occur from time to time along this 'flattened'stretch - maybe connected?The thought that there was/were earlie mills is more than logical and probably expected as the land and resources changed over theyears and goes someway to explaining the unexpected and discontinuous water courses as you say. I've gone straight back to Thorpes map. between asket hill and foxwood farm the beck winds and wobbles from side to side. So that could easily have been straightened in modern times.the stretch between foxwood farm and about 200 meters south it's a lot straighter, then as it heads for foundry lane it twists and turns again.Could be that straightening was done pre 1821 and when you were at school!! Just different time for different stretches.If you refer to Thorpes map look where the "h" in Roundhay is - that looks like the dam at Ellers Close.

[The Parksider]

grumpytramp wrote: The Wyke Beck valley here must have been very attractive for the medieval and pre-industrial revolution iron masters with a happy trinity of coal (the Black Band was typically 2’ to 3’ of high quality coal), ironstone (nodules or nodular bands of ironstone in the overlaying mudstone roof of the Black Band coal perhaps totalling 1’ to 2’ thickness in up to 6’ of mustone/shale) and water power     There was also Limestone for the flux as land up in the Ramsheads at the top of the rein gives way to Limestone hence "Limewood approach".Also the sandstone which was the base for the monk's charcoal furnaces, and protective walling.Plus the smelting skills of the local populace sould have been handed down the generations from the early days of smelting.

[chameleon]

'1821 and when you were at school!''spose I asked for that - but you weren't far behind me as I recall ....Old friendWill have a look at the map tomorrow too.

[The Parksider]

grumpytramp wrote: I am of the opinion that the water course has been straightened from its original course (see the eccentric alignment of the field boundary to the east) and that it has been used for an industrial process. The location of Fox Wood Farm is interesting at the confluence of the modified Wyke Beck and Arthurs Rein (note the pond to the immediate north) an ideal location for a mill?I am also of the opinion that the purpose of this industrial activity can be garnered from the local geology a substantial outcrop to the immediate east of current position of Easterly Road of the Black Band coal and ironstone. The Wyke Beck valley here must have been very attractive for the medieval and pre-industrial revolution iron masters with a happy trinity of coal, ironstone, and water powerIt is my suspicion that the Wyke Beck was engineered with a combination of straightening, leats and weirs to provide water power for other foundary mills probably in the vicinity of Fox Wood Farm (apologies Cham if the 1821 reference came out wrong. Yes I am just behind you but I look darn young for my age)I have picked out Grumpytramps thoughts on the area and have set out today to do a "field trip" to check the matter accordingly.The mighty GP predicts a "Weir" and one is there where the footbridge crosses to the Askets and The Rein. It is over 3 meters wide (it dissapears into the low mud bank - fancy some excavation Chameleon!!) and is probably at least 4 meters wide.From the weir and immediately downstream we see the course of the "beck???" straighten artificially. Under the new footbridge abutments is two concrete rafts. Under that is several courses of old dressed stone that create a two meter wide channel for the weir to feed into.I am no expert but I do think that wide weirs are created that overflow into narrow channels to increase the flow strength of water in order to power undershot waterwheels. Stone lining of the channel is important as the water speed would speed erosion and silting.Taking the refence point of the two walls under the bridge and walking on towards foxwood farm (site of), every so often you see the remains of a dresed stone wall holding the bank back and keeping the line of a two meter wide channel. At a point near to foxwood farm both retaining walls of about 5-6 courses of dressed sandstone are still there in a stretch of several meters that is wonderfully preserved and well worth a look. After foxwood farm there is no walling to the Beck??????The line of these parts of old walls is dead straight if you join them up in your eyeline, but of course much of the stonework is now missing and the banks have crumbled and the beck???? has started to carve out meandering curves again. Tree roots have also broken up the walling as nature reclaims this area, but there is ample easy to see evidence of a 4 meter wide weir funneling fast flowing water into a 2 meter wide stone lined watercourse.I have now changed the wording beck???? to watercourse and referring back to what we could see of a combined beck and watercourse on Victorian OS maps I am now wondering if what we thought was the remnant of Mathers watercourse stopping at the second field wall may actually be the original and natural course of wyke beck, and what we see as wyke beck today from easterly road to fox wood farm may actually be as GP thinks an artificial watercourse - not neccessarily Mathers original watercourse (because it is probable in my mind that the remains you can see of a weir and stone lined watercourse does not date from pre-1600.)***** Further to this Cynder hills is not at Foxwood farm but lower than that. It is most probable Mathers smelted iron by Cynder Hills in 1600 using a wheel powered by a watercourse. It could be that after Mathers Mill a second "Foxwood" Mill could have been built further up where Foxwood farm was later built. A slag path (that being Foundry Mill Lane) leads directly to that point. This could be when a weir was created and a stone lining placed to a channel to speed the water as it fed a waterwheel at Foxwood Mill.Problems with water engineering could have led to slow production at Mathers Mill, hence what we can see at the Foxwood Farm site.THEN Foxwood Mill get's abandoned and they use a completely different watercourse from Ross Gill for a third Foundry Mill.Certainly the track "Foundry Mill Lane" is made from old slag as far down as Foxwood Farm, but not after that - where it crosses the beck(and on later maps makes its way up to the last Foundry Mill we can see on maps post 1800.)That it crosses the beck leads me to think that this "slag lane" on the west side of the beck ran to a mill on the east side at Foxwood farm. When that mill was abandoned and a new Mill built near Foundry Lane, THEN they created a crossing over the wyke beck to get up to the new Mill and to give the farmer who built Foxwood Farm (built in red brick so it was not that old) access to the fields on the east bank.EEEEEEEHHHHHHHHH BAR GUM - I really enjoyed the trip today, you must have a look Chameleon.

[The Parksider]

The Parksider wrote: I said....That it crosses the beck leads me to think that this "slag lane" on the west side of the beck ran to a mill on the east side at Foxwood farm. Whoops. Foundry Mill Lane runs on the west side of the beck or warercourse to Foxwood farm ALSO on the west side of the beck or watercourse. The idea is if this lane was to run to a foundry mill then it runs directly to foxwood farm NOT the later foundry mill.