Leodis/Loidis

[cnosni]

Well as you say there were celts in the area,as the country was entirely celtic.Here is a link to an intersting sitehttp://www.oldtykes.co.uk/British.htmThe trouble with the document refeered to on this on this webpage,Bonhed Gwyr y Gogledd,is that it is written some centuries after the supposed events.The publisher on this page would seem to take the document as face value.The names on the document,which is a "genealogy of men of the north" are all Celticised(is that a word?).For instance, Dyfawal Hen (Dyfawal the Old) who was himself a grandson of Macsen Wledig, the self-proclaimed Emperor of Rome.Well Macsen Wledig would appear to refer to Magnus Clemens Maximus (ca. 335–August 28, 38, also known as Maximianus .Believed to be born in Iberia he was proclaimed as Emporor by his troops in Britain in 383.Now,this celtic reworking of thsi name suggests to me that it will not be the only example of reworkings,for instance at the supposed time of the writing of Bonhed Gwyr y Gogledd,the Welsh had been subject to a full on military campaign by Edward IA rebellion in 1272 had been put down,but another rebellion in 1283 led to a full scale military campaign by Edward,After a successful campaign, Edward subjected Wales to English rule, built a series of castles and towns in the countryside and settled them Englishmen.In oter wortds Welsh culture and heritage were under attack.So perhaps Bonhed Gwyr y Gogledd is,to some extent,a bit of Celtic propoganda,to legitimise and grandise an earlier "British" culture.We cant be ceratin,but what we can be certain is that a lot of "ambiguity" is in this document,with lots of "probables","could be's" and little actual dating evidence,more to do with romantic tales passed down through generations.Therefore i would be very wary of the conclusions that are reached.There is no archaeological evidence that i am aware of that indicates a celtic presence in the area that was to become Leeds,around the Parish Church.That isnt to say that there isnt any to be foundThere is evidence of Angles (Angle Crossess in Leeds Parish Church),and then Vikings,who were to mingle and become the people of Leeds.With that in mind i would have thought that Loiner or Lo- iner would be more likely to derive from the later settlers.I wonder what the earliest recording of Loiner is?

[Si]

I don't know if "Celticised" is a real word, but it does describe (like "Romanised") what actually happened during these ancient "invasions." They were more of an invasion of culture, rather than the entire incumbent population being pushed into the sea to make way for thousands of Celts (or Romans, Angles, Saxons, etc.) A relatively small (albeit sometimes beligerent) group arrived on our shores and their culture was gradually accepted, either by initial force, as in the case of the Romans - most of whom weren't even from Rome - or by more peaceful means, such as trade.

[cnosni]

cnosni wrote: Well as you say there were celts in the area,as the country was entirely celtic.Here is a link to an intersting sitehttp://www.oldtykes.co.uk/British.htmThe trouble with the document refeered to on this on this webpage,Bonhed Gwyr y Gogledd,is that it is written some centuries after the supposed events.The publisher on this page would seem to take the document at face value.The names on the document,which is a "genealogy of men of the north" are all Celticised(is that a word?).For instance, Dyfawal Hen (Dyfawal the Old) who was himself a grandson of Macsen Wledig, the self-proclaimed Emperor of Rome.Well Macsen Wledig would appear to refer to Magnus Clemens Maximus (ca. 335–August 28, 38, also known as Maximianus .Believed to be born in Iberia he was proclaimed as Emporor by his troops in Britain in 383.Now,this celtic reworking of thsi name suggests to me that it will not be the only example of reworking names ,both od individuals and places, for the document.But why would that be the case?Well at the supposed time of the writing of Bonhed Gwyr y Gogledd,the Welsh had been subject to a full on military campaign by Edward IA rebellion in 1272 had been put down,but another rebellion in 1283 led to a full scale military campaign by Edward,After a successful campaign, Edward subjected Wales to English rule, built a series of castles and towns in the countryside and settled them Englishmen.In other wortds Welsh culture and heritage were under attack.So perhaps Bonhed Gwyr y Gogledd is,to some extent,a bit of Welsh/Celtic propaganda,to legitimise and grandise an earlier "British" culture,and act as a rallying point,a focus of resistance.We cant be ceratin,but what we can be certain is that a lot of ambiguity is in this document,with lots of "probables","could be's" and little actual dating evidence,more akin with romantic tales passed down through generations in the oral tradition.Therefore i would be very wary of the conclusions that are reached on this webpage.Clearly the Kingdom of Elmete existed,the area of what is now Leeds was within it but whetether or not there was a celtic centric settlement that would give a name that would eventually become Loidis/ Leeds would seem unlikely given the circumstances.Bede,in his Ecclesiastical History written in 730 AD states that the "region" of Loidis was previously known as "Cambodunum",a Roman placename.Cambodunum was a stopping off point on the Roman road between York and Manchester,along with Tadcaster.The location of Cambodunum is not proven,but historians believe that the place name translates to "the fort by the river bend".Taking the connection between Cambodunum and Loidis given by Bede and the topography of Quarry Hill (with the now underground stream running past it)and the description of ramparts given by Thoresby in the 18th century then historians believe that Quarry Hill could indeed have been Cambodunum. The Kingdom of Elmete lasted for a short time.Even if it started the day after the Romam withdrawal around 400 AD (which it wouldnt have done) then it ended in 617 with Edwin,the Angle King of Northumbria,defeating and banishing the incumbent King Ceretic.There is no archaeological evidence, that i am aware of ,that indicates a celtic presence in the area that was to become Leeds,that is around the Parish Church and Kirkgate.That isnt to say that there isnt any to be found but a complete lack of Celtic placenames suggests that if there was an earlier Celtic settlement then the Angles did not maintain the traditions/places of a possible earlier Celtic settlement.The places that were to become permanant on the map of Leeds have their origins in the later Norse settlers who mingled with the Angles places such as Kirkgate and later Briggate,Hol Beck etc.The only existing place name that is Celtic is "Aire",obviously the river.Now as the river is not unique to Leeds,it passes through many places then it would be difficult to say that it is evidence of a Celtic presence in Leeds.This indicates that in all probability that the place name of Loidis was probably an Angle one,and if Loidis was indeed to become Leeds then Lo-iner would be more likely to stem from this.There is evidence of Angles.There is an Angle Cross in Leeds Parish Church ,dated 8th or 9th centuryBede states that the monk Paulinus,http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/263.htmlwho was to become first Bishop of York,and was a contemporary of Edwin of Nortumbria, built a church at Campodunum (Bedes spelling for Cambodunum)As is traditional,churches were built on the site of previous churches and as the present Parish Church ,has the Angle crosses that were found in the foundations of the medieaval building,shows a presence of an ecclesiastical building in that time frame,and seem to indicate that the church in Campodunum/Cambodunum,later Loidis.

[Brandy]

Good link that Chris thanks

[Trojan]

Elmethttp://www.oldtykes.co.uk/elmetmap.htm

[cnosni]

Si wrote: I don't know if "Celticised" is a real word, but it does describe (like "Romanised") what actually happened during these ancient "invasions." They were more of an invasion of culture, rather than the entire incumbent population being pushed into the sea to make way for thousands of Celts (or Romans, Angles, Saxons, etc.) A relatively small (albeit sometimes beligerent) group arrived on our shores and their culture was gradually accepted, either by initial force, as in the case of the Romans - most of whom weren't even from Rome - or by more peaceful means, such as trade. I was thinking more on the lines that the places and people mentioned in that Middle Ages document were made with a leaning towards the Celtic,the changing of a latin Roman name into a Celtic one to try and make it appear that a Roman emporor was in some ways welsh.and anyway,What have the Romans ever done for us eh?

[Arry Awk]

cnosni wrote: Si wrote: I don't know if "Celticised" is a real word, but it does describe (like "Romanised") what actually happened during these ancient "invasions." They were more of an invasion of culture, rather than the entire incumbent population being pushed into the sea to make way for thousands of Celts (or Romans, Angles, Saxons, etc.) A relatively small (albeit sometimes beligerent) group arrived on our shores and their culture was gradually accepted, either by initial force, as in the case of the Romans - most of whom weren't even from Rome - or by more peaceful means, such as trade. I was thinking more on the lines that the places and people mentioned in that Middle Ages document were made with a leaning towards the Celtic,the changing of a latin Roman name into a Celtic one to try and make it appear that a Roman emporor was in some ways welsh.and anyway,What have the Romans ever done for us eh? Gave us noses and Candles! lol

[cnosni]

What about the aquaducts?

[Briggy]

Just to throw another couple of theories into the pot, this is what the goold old Annals of Leeds, published in 1860, makes of the origin of the city name:"Leeds is supposed by Thoresby to be derivedfrom the British "cair hid colt", a town in the wood; by Bedefrom the first Saxon possessor named Loidi, others supposei t to be derived from our German ancestors, as there is atown called Leeds, on the river Dender in Austria Flanders,near which is the village of Holbeck. Briggate, the Bridgegate,—Kirkgate, the Church-gate,—Swinegate, so calledfrom leading to a beck or stream where those animals werewashed."

[Trojan]

Briggy wrote: Just to throw another couple of theories into the pot, this is what the goold old Annals of Leeds, published in 1860, makes of the origin of the city name:"Leeds is supposed by Thoresby to be derivedfrom the British "cair hid colt", a town in the wood; by Bedefrom the first Saxon possessor named Loidi, others supposei t to be derived from our German ancestors, as there is atown called Leeds, on the river Dender in Austria Flanders,near which is the village of Holbeck. Briggate, the Bridgegate,—Kirkgate, the Church-gate,—Swinegate, so calledfrom leading to a beck or stream where those animals werewashed." There are Briggates and Kirkgates in many northern towns though, there's a Briggate in Bradford and there's certainly a Kirkgate in Wakey. There's a village called Holbeck in Notts - on the road from the M1 (jct 30) to Newark. I must admit I've never seen another Swinegate. Ponte has a "Beastfair" though