Non-LCT Buses that ran into Leeds

Uno Hoo · Post by **Uno Hoo** » Thu 01 Jan, 2009 12:45 pm

A cutaway drawing of a Wulfrunian showing structural and mechanical detail was published as a centre-spread in "The Eagle" comic, and that was my first knowledge of it. That feature billed it as "The World's Most Advanced Bus", and I have no doubt that such epithet was true.I didn't know about the West Riding involvement, and so it was with some surprise when I had reason to go from Leeds to Rothwell some time later, when a futuristic looking vehicle showed up at that miniscule terminus West Riding had opposite the market (or was that the abattoir?). I enjoyed the ride on the front seats upstairs, but my pal soon started to feel queasy due to the air suspension, but managed to keep his lunch inside him!Only other experience came years later when my wife and I visited one of her aunts in Chapeltown, near Sheffield. For some reason we hadn't gone by car, and so caught a bus for the return journey. To my surprise a green Wulfrunian showed up. Can't remember now if it was on the 66 Sheffield-Bradford or not, but I recall thinking how cramped the driver accommodation was, and noting that the staircase was on the "wrong side", i.e. on the passenger's right upon boarding. The front wheels also looked strange, being at an angle to the axle rather than straight, so all in all, a bit of a weird breed. Pity that Guy Motors came to such a sad end - not to mention West Riding!

Uno Hoo · Post by **Uno Hoo** » Thu 01 Jan, 2009 12:58 pm

Sorry, got diverted by a couple of phone calls during the previous post, so forgot to mention that I used to have a scale drawing of a West Riding AEC Regent III with Roe centre-entrance body. This had been sent out with its newsletter by the Model Bus Federation in about 1969, at which time I was a member. It was intended for use by scratch-builders of bus models - in those days there were no diecast scale models with any real accuracy, so we all used to modify Dinky & Corgi models to try and resemble the real things. I'll have a rummage around and see if I can find it, although I'm not holding my breath after 40 years. Are there any scratch-builders out there who might wish to have a bash? (It might be better to lobby either EFE or Original Omnibus to mass produce a version).Blakey, you may remember whether or not some of the centre-entrance West Ridings were based on the AEC RT chassis rather than the Regent? I fancy I've seen a pic of one, but can't remember where.

BLAKEY · Post by **BLAKEY** » Thu 01 Jan, 2009 1:11 pm

Uno Hoo wrote: Only other experience came years later when my wife and I visited one of her aunts in Chapeltown, near Sheffield. For some reason we hadn't gone by car, and so caught a bus for the return journey. To my surprise a green Wulfrunian showed up. Can't remember now if it was on the 66 Sheffield-Bradford or not, but I recall thinking how cramped the driver accommodation was, and noting that the staircase was on the "wrong side", i.e. on the passenger's right upon boarding. The front wheels also looked strange, being at an angle to the axle rather than straight, so all in all, a bit of a weird breed. Pity that Guy Motors came to such a sad end - not to mention West Riding! The space alongside the huge Gardner engine was totally inadequate, and would certainly not be tolerated today and rightly so.The independent front suspension would "settle" at low speeds and standstill, causing that ridiculous angle of the wheels, but was supposed to rise to the normal vertical when moving. This of course caused horrendous tyre wear and driver strain as, I believe I'm right in saying, the steering was not power assisted - incredible !!The word "Wulfrunian" by the way means a citizen of Wolverhampton, where the chassis were designed and built.Another very sad legacy of the spectacular Wulfrunian failure is that it undoubtedly marred the success of the superb Ailsa Volvo double decker in later years. Operators had become suspicious and terrified of the layout where large buses had the engine at the front and many didn't order - but the Ailsa was a wonderful machine in every way and sold fairly well but had it not been for the Wulfrunian memory it really would have been a large scale triumph.It was powered very effectively by a tiny Volvo 7.2 litre turbocharged engine which propelled the usual well made Alexander 79 seat plus standing body at a very commendable rate. Cab space was perfectly adequate, as was platform area and the cash counter above the engine made One Person Operation perfectly OK. Very civilised semi automatic gears had the control on the right hand window ledge, and the gearbox/flywheel noise was as good an imitation of a Mark 3 AEC Regent that you're ever likely to hear. I drove the three Independent Coachways ones (Ex Tyne and Wear PTE) often and they were a treat. Black Prince of course had a very large fleet of them at one time, and even the mighty London Transport had three experimental ones of varying layouts and others second hand. They were as stable a double decker as I have ever driven and held the road perfectly. Among several very satisfied customers were Cardiff Corporation who have just withdrawn their last, some of which had put in twenty five years excellent service - without removing any top deck seats !!

Trojan · Post by **Trojan** » Thu 01 Jan, 2009 2:38 pm

[quotenick="BLAKEY"] Uno Hoo wrote: The word "Wulfrunian" by the way means a citizen of Wolverhampton, where the chassis were designed and built. The word Wulfrunian is as you say applied to citizens of Wolverhampton, but if you Google it you also come up with Wolverhampton Wanderers FC, so as well as Wolves presumably those in the know call them the Wulfrunians.I believe Lancashire United were one of the few other bus operators to buy a Wufrunian, but they sold it to West Riding.

BLAKEY · Post by **BLAKEY** » Thu 01 Jan, 2009 3:43 pm

[quotenick="Trojan"] BLAKEY wrote: Uno Hoo wrote: The word "Wulfrunian" by the way means a citizen of Wolverhampton, where the chassis were designed and built. The word Wulfrunian is as you say applied to citizens of Wolverhampton, but if you Google it you also come up with Wolverhampton Wanderers FC, so as well as Wolves presumably those in the know call them the Wulfrunians.I believe Lancashire United were one of the few other bus operators to buy a Wufrunian, but they sold it to West Riding. The sad total of Wulfrunians built was 143, of which West Riding had 126 brand new. Others that I can think of just now were :-Accrington Corporation (rear open platform, very odd).... 2Wolverhampton Corporation............................................ 2Bury Corporation (friendly reg LEN 101).......................... 1Lancashire United............................................................. 1West Wales.......................................................................1County Motors (Lepton) assocated with WR.....................2A sad story indeed of a brave and commendable, if over ambitious, experiment that went woefully wrong.

Trojan · Post by **Trojan** » Thu 01 Jan, 2009 4:11 pm

BLAKEY wrote: [The space alongside the huge Gardner engine was totally inadequate, and would certainly not be tolerated today and rightly so. I didn't realise that the Wulfrunian had a Gardner engine. Presumably so did the other Guy products - West Riding operated Guy Arabs on their 57/58/61 route through Morley immediately before the Wofrunian. Presumably these also had Gardner engines.The Gardner engine - David Brown gearbox - Kirkstall back axle was the classic truck combination - especially Foden.As anyone who reads my posts on here will know I'm connected with the earthmoving industry and worked for Levertons the Cat dealer in the past. Caterpillar Diesel engines are reckoned to be among the best, but a customer of mine who'd been around the Peoria Ill. HQ of Caterpillar in the sixties said that he noted they had several examples of Gardner units in their research department.

Uno Hoo · Post by **Uno Hoo** » Thu 01 Jan, 2009 6:15 pm

Hi TrojanThe Gardner could almost be classified as the first choice power plant for many bus fleets, and powered Bristol, Guy, AEC & Daimler buses, although each of those manufacturers offered their own engines as well, except Guy, who sold a minority with Meadows units. The ex-Tilling Group Companies standardised on Bristol chassis with Eastern Coach Works (ECW) bodies, and frequently specified the Gardner 5LW engine for fuel economy, but some operators in hilly terrain found that the 5 pot was actually not good for hill climbing with full loads. The 6LW was more versatile, and the 6LX was fitted for power and speed for express running in some fleets. The Daimler Fleetline, built as a competitor against the Atlantean, was an instant hit simply because of its Gardner engine.

Trojan · Post by **Trojan** » Thu 01 Jan, 2009 7:05 pm

Uno Hoo wrote: Hi TrojanThe Gardner could almost be classified as the first choice power plant for many bus fleets, and powered Bristol, Guy, AEC & Daimler buses, although each of those manufacturers offered their own engines as well, except Guy, who sold a minority with Meadows units. The ex-Tilling Group Companies standardised on Bristol chassis with Eastern Coach Works (ECW) bodies, and frequently specified the Gardner 5LW engine for fuel economy, but some operators in hilly terrain found that the 5 pot was actually not good for hill climbing with full loads. The 6LW was more versatile, and the 6LX was fitted for power and speed for express running in some fleets. The Daimler Fleetline, built as a competitor against the Atlantean, was an instant hit simply because of its Gardner engine. That's really interesting, I had no idea, I knew the Gardner was used in various commercial vehicles (such as Foden and ERF) but I'd assumed the bus manufacturers fitted Leyland for some reason.

BLAKEY · Post by **BLAKEY** » Thu 01 Jan, 2009 7:37 pm

Trojan wrote: BLAKEY wrote: [The space alongside the huge Gardner engine was totally inadequate, and would certainly not be tolerated today and rightly so. I didn't realise that the Wulfrunian had a Gardner engine. Presumably so did the other Guy products - West Riding operated Guy Arabs on their 57/58/61 route through Morley immediately before the Wofrunian. Presumably these also had Gardner engines.The Gardner engine - David Brown gearbox - Kirkstall back axle was the classic truck combination - especially Foden. Oh you've really got my nostalgia going now Trojan - the wonderful little Guy Arabs that preceded the Wulfrunians at West Riding were fabulous motors - full of character. Enthusiasts apart though, they were extremely cramped in both deks, especially with the "four across" lowbridge upper saloon and sunken gangway which caused many a nasty bruise on lower saloon passengers' heads. They did indeed have Gardner engines. I once made a tape recording on one with a full standing load ascending the steep hill from Kippax Baths up to Cross Hills - the driver made the finest downward change into first gear that I've ever had the pleasure to witness - not a click nor a jerk of any kind - masterly !!Prior to those of course, West Riding had a large fleet of Wartime utility Guy Arabs also with Gardner 6LW engines - these too were fine machines - often operating with the bonnet side open and leaning on the nearside mudguard in a form of scientific extra cooling.Now I am going to surprise those who don't know about this - and its not April 1st. During the Wulfrunian crisis and the costly premature withdrawal of many of them some brand new Fleetline chassis were delivered to WR without engines, and were fitted with the spare Gardner units before bodying - a very sensible "first aid" move to stem the financial haemorrage which was critical.

BLAKEY · Post by **BLAKEY** » Thu 01 Jan, 2009 7:48 pm

Uno Hoo wrote: Hi TrojanThe 6LW was more versatile, and the 6LX was fitted for power and speed for express running in some fleets. The Daimler Fleetline, built as a competitor against the Atlantean, was an instant hit simply because of its Gardner engine. The 6LX was actually fitted in thousands of ordinary service buses as well, after its better characteristics deposed the 6LW from its prime position as a real cracker of an engine.Personal preference this, but I always disliked Atlanteans for many reasons. As you say the Daimler Fleetline( and the later Leyland version) was a wonderful machine, even when taken over by Leyland and fitted with their own engine. Its roadholding, excellent gear ratios and decent suspension and "stance" left the warbling, wandering, rolling, poorly braked Atlantean at the starting gate. Even the Atlantean's dreadful side engine covers (which would often swing open on the road causing danger to anyone ar anything in the firing liine) were banished on the Fleetline drawing board in favour of fixed safe side unit.The Gardner manufacturing process for the LW series engines was most clever. they made two and three cylinder blocks. If you wanted a 4 pot engine you got 2 x 2 blocks, a five pot you got a 2 and a 3, and for the 6LW 2 x 3. Clever eh ??