Burley Bar Stone - and the rest

Leodian · Post by **Leodian** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 1:32 pm

On doing a search of the Leodis website for Vicar Lane one item I came across was a photo taken on 4th October 1928 of the North Bar Engineering Co., at the junction of Lady Lane and Harewood Street. I do not recall hearing of this company, but its name is interesting. In the photo information it states "The North bar was situated beside the old workhouse at the junction of Vicar lane and Lady Lane close to this site". I assume that information may though be derived from the present belief that the North Bar Stone is (or was?) where the cladded area is, but perhaps it was already there in 1928? Sadly the photo does not show that area. This is a link to the Leodis item:- http://www.leodis.net/display.aspx?reso ... SPLAY=FULL

String o' beads · Post by **String o' beads** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 2:04 pm

This link:http://weavingsandunpickings.wordpress. ... nalia/from the previous thread on the topic:http://www.secretleeds.co.uk/forum/Mess ... 62provides two photos.

Post by **cnosni** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 2:04 pm

The St Marys catholic chapel opened in 1794 is the old BRS building (which still exists, grade 2 listed) on Lady Lane, and not the St Marys chantry chapel on North Street associated with the North Bar stone which we are talikng about.We did cover St Marys chapel in the Skulls thread when we were looking into mediaeval chapels and buildings in Leeds as possible sources for the origins of the skulls.These chantry chapels were located on the edge of the town boundary and are very ancient.They were used by mediaeval travellers who were leaving the town to go wherever.The idea being that before you went out, on what was to all intents and purposes a journey that was not without risk, that you had a last chance to go in and say a prayer etc and ask God for a safe journey so to speak.So it would make sense that these chapels, given their nature, would be where the boundary was marked on the 4 main routes out of the town, hence St Marys being immediately adjacent to the North Bar stone, the road, North Street, being the main thoroughfare north out of the townThere was a similar one for the main southern route out of the town actually situated on Leeds Bridge itself, another St Marys, the south bar being on the south of the bridge (though not on it).The eastern route and bar stone are covered by the parish church itself, which leaves the west.The main westerley route out of Leeds in the1500's ( west from the top of Briggate) was Westgate, which makes sense, however the Bar Stone located on this road (which is i the Leeds Perm) is Burley Bar.The Western Bar stone itself was on Boar Lane, behind (according to Kevin Gradys illustrated history of Leeds) the manor house and its moat/ ditch.Boar lane did not continue directly westwards but took a 90 degree turn north along the eastern edge of the manorial park, near as damn it the route of Park Row, joining up to Westgate at what lokks roughly like where the war memorial is now situated.There appears to be no chapel immediately adjacent to the Burley or West Bar stones, however a chapel constructed some time just after 1524 at the bequest of William Eure, Vicar of Leeds, in his Will resulted in a chapel being built on the west side of Briggate at the junction of the Headrow (roughly where Burtons is), it would have also covered the route north west out of Leeds , past the Woodhouse Bar.This route would have been the optimum route west (down Westgate from the top of Briggate) in and out of Leeds and its most important street Briggate.I would think that given the more ancient chapels associated with the other routes in and out of Leeds that there was probably an older chapel for the western route out of Leeds of which we know nothing about.Looking at the style of lettering and the patternation of the stone in the picture (and the East Bar) it looks like it is not that old, per say, probably made during the 17th- 18th century.

String o' beads · Post by **String o' beads** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 2:05 pm

This 'cladding' looks different to what's there now.

Tasa · Post by **Tasa** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 4:02 pm

I think the map abbreviation is M.H and means man hole (what looks like a letter D is the man hole itself) - there are others elsewhere on the same map (looking at the Old Maps website) which can be read more clearly.

jim · Post by **jim** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 4:09 pm

Cnosni's post above set me thinking along another tack on this topic. We have been assuming that the bar stones are mediaeval in origin. As Cnosni says,they don't appear to be as old as that. Also, looking at the c1500 map posted by Jogon on 23/1/13 (foot of page 3), the sites are indicated, yet there are no buildings shown near them. I have another theory (cries of "Oh, no!). Could these markers have been put into place as formal markers at the start of turnpike trust toll roads? From the late 17thC to the mid 19thC large numbers of roads were turnpiked by Act of Parliament in a similar way to that used to build railways and canals in the next waves of transport provision. This is not a field in which I have much knowledge, but it would seem quite within reason to start such route from the accepted earlier boundaries of towns and cities. A cursory look at the lists of local turnpike trusts shows that those listed starting from Leeds could well have been from the bar stone sites.As a matter of semantics, I would find the use of the term bar stones more likely to refer to toll bars than the type of bar found at York i.e. gates and or archways at city walls. As turnpike trusts were generally individual private speculations it could also provide a reason for the differences in shape and lettering style to be seen in the surviving stones. The various references to the stones being "at the mediaeval boundaries" do not make the claim that the stones were installed at that time. EDIT These ideas are firmly squashed by my locating several sites of the turnpike limits on the Godfrey 1847 etc maps. An excuse for another thread perhaps.

Post by **cnosni** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 4:30 pm

jim wrote: Cnosni's post above set me thinking along another tack on this topic. We have been assuming that the bar stones are mediaeval in origin. As Cnosni says,they don't appear to be as old as that. Also, looking at the c1500 map posted by Jogon on 23/1/13 (foot of page 3), the sites are indicated, yet there are no buildings shown near them. I have another theory (cries of "Oh, no!). Could these markers have been put into place as formal markers at the start of turnpike trust toll roads? From the late 17thC to the mid 19thC large numbers of roads were turnpiked by Act of Parliament in a similar way to that used to build railways and canals in the next waves of transport provision. This is not a field in which I have much knowledge, but it would seem quite within reason to start such route from the accepted earlier boundaries of towns and cities. A cursory look at the lists of local turnpike trusts shows that those listed starting from Leeds could well have been from the bar stone sites.As a matter of semantics, I would find the use of the term bar stones more likely to refer to toll bars than the type of bar found at York i.e. gates and or archways at city walls. As turnpike trusts were generally individual private speculations it could also provide a reason for the differences in shape and lettering style to be seen in the surviving stones. The various references to the stones being "at the mediaeval boundaries" do not make the claim that the stones were installed at that time. Good points Jim, but i think that if they were put in for the first time in the 17th/18th/19th century then it would not make sense to place them at the medieaval boundaries as the town had outgrown them by then.However they must still have been of some relevance as the age isnt known for too much nostalgia and preservation of quirky things for the sake of it.I think that the originals may have become worn/ damaged and that they were replaced by later ones.Looking at an image of the Burley Bar Stone id say that its 18th century, judging by the style of lettering.http://www.sorcerers-apprentice.co.uk/historyb.htmThe above link im afraid is indicative of how the truth is twisted to fit someones beliefs. They are saying that places like Heading-Ley and Bur- Ley are so called because they are on "Ley Lines"What utter tosh, the "Ley" suffix is Danish Viking for for clearing in the wood/ meadow, as in Leylands, Orley (Otto's clearing).That Dan Brown is responsible for all this nonsense, and there people daft enough to take it at face value without looking into it themselves.Rant over, awaits Jonesy

Post by **cnosni** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 4:32 pm

Tasa wrote: I think the map abbreviation is M.H and means man hole (what looks like a letter D is the man hole itself) - there are others elsewhere on the same map (looking at the Old Maps website) which can be read more clearly. I had to giggle the other day listening to the traffic report on Planet Rock radio, which is usually read by the DJ on duty at the time.He announced that (at a location i cant recall) a "Prolapsed Man Hole" was causing traffice chaos.

LS1 · Post by **LS1** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 6:34 pm

Geordie-exile wrote: This 'cladding' looks different to what's there now. Deffo the same Geordie.Phil - re your other post, it's not felt that is there but it looks like a cheapo green granite that is on the corner edge of the old bus station. If you get a chance to look, wonder what you think it may be or anyone else that has a bit of expertise on stone/ brickwork. This place would make a fantastic 30s cafe or restaurant shame that this has to go as it is really quite a nice building and would look so much better once it is refurbed.Feel a bit sorry for those people that were on that tour who will have gone away assuredly telling people that the North Bar stone is behind that plywood. Can I wonder, if it is due to be demolished, the current owners would be up for getting some of that façade away. The chap who looks after the car park can put anyone who is interested in touch with the owners. I had a chat with him about this and he said that he would look for the stone.Some interesting features too behind the bus station behind those doors. May be rats though so put me off looking more

String o' beads · Post by **String o' beads** » Sun 02 Mar, 2014 7:08 pm

LS1 wrote: Geordie-exile wrote: This 'cladding' looks different to what's there now. Deffo the same Geordie. Are you sure? They appear to be larger panels, with the division around head height, as is the potential plywood. What's there now [or what I can discern on streetview] appears to be half the size. Might be the camera angle I suppose?