SecretLeeds - History, culture and architecture in Leeds

OK – another vague question for all you Dear Readers to respond to…I am having to base this on a bit of an assumption about our readers, & I know this won’t apply to all of you, but…In the broadest sense, if you prefer the tower of Leeds Town Hall to the tower of Bridgewater Place (as I do), if you prefer the old red-brick back to back terraces of the past to the new student accommodation of the present, then this question is for you.What are we celebrating when we celebrate the past / the old in Leeds, & bemoan the present / the new? We all love the Victorian Architecture of Leeds, but I’m sure that, at heart, we all know that life in Victorian Leeds was no more pleasant / safe / happy than it is in the Leeds of 2008. Disease, violent crime, prostitution, bad housing, no public sanitation, pollution, these were all features of life in Victorian Leeds as much, if not more so, than they are now. It is the Developers, the ARUPs, the MEPCs, the Caddick’s who are shaping & reshaping modern Leeds. It’s their decisions that we feel we have no control over, when they are shutting the independent traders in the Corn Exchange, demolishing the International Pool, creating Lumiere Towers. But the Town Hall, the Corn Exchange, were all built by Mercantile Princes of the City who were out to make the most money they could out of the smallest possible space, in exactly the same way. Were your Marshalls, your Gotts, your Brodricks any different in intention from the modern day developers?We hear constant boasts about the fact that Lumiere Towers might be (for a very short while) the tallest building in a certain bit of Europe, that Leeds Met Developments will be the tallest student accommodation in Europe. If you look at the reasons why the Corporation decided to build the Town Hall, it was entirely in competition with Bradford. If Bradford had not built St George’s Hall, then our Town Hall would probably never have been built. One of the Latin mottoes inside the Victoria Hall is LABOR OMNIA VINCIT, which translates as INDUSTRY OVERCOMES ALL. It is a very typically Victorian sentiment, but it also happens to be the motto of Bradford’s Council, & was a very public poke in the eye for Bradford, when we had built a Hall bigger than theirs!Is it not the case that these ‘Mercantile Princes’ have ALWAYS been the life-blood of Leeds. Right from the signing of the first town charter in 1207, the reason was COMMERCE. The town of Leeds was created so that people could make money in it. Perhaps the only thing that has changed in 800 years is that different resources have been at a premium. Once, it was the trade in cotton & wool, the engineering. Now, for a short time, probably, it is space for accommodation, space for retail, space for offices…If these Mercantile Princes / Developers have always been in charge, have always shaped the city & the skyline, then what is it that we are proud of? What is it that we mourn from the past & miss in the present?What is it about US (the people who are not developers, rich business men, decision-makers), which makes us proud of ‘our’ City? Has it ever been ‘ours’ in the past, in a way which it is not now?What do you think?    

munki wrote: OK – another vague question for all you Dear Readers to respond to…I am having to base this on a bit of an assumption about our readers, & I know this won’t apply to all of you, but…In the broadest sense, if you prefer the tower of Leeds Town Hall to the tower of Bridgewater Place (as I do), if you prefer the old red-brick back to back terraces of the past to the new student accommodation of the present, then this question is for you.What are we celebrating when we celebrate the past / the old in Leeds, & bemoan the present / the new? We all love the Victorian Architecture of Leeds, but I’m sure that, at heart, we all know that life in Victorian Leeds was no more pleasant / safe / happy than it is in the Leeds of 2008. Disease, violent crime, prostitution, bad housing, no public sanitation, pollution, these were all features of life in Victorian Leeds as much, if not more so, than they are now. It is the Developers, the ARUPs, the MEPCs, the Caddick’s who are shaping & reshaping modern Leeds. It’s their decisions that we feel we have no control over, when they are shutting the independent traders in the Corn Exchange, demolishing the International Pool, creating Lumiere Towers. But the Town Hall, the Corn Exchange, were all built by Mercantile Princes of the City who were out to make the most money they could out of the smallest possible space, in exactly the same way. Were your Marshalls, your Gotts, your Brodricks any different in intention from the modern day developers?We hear constant boasts about the fact that Lumiere Towers might be (for a very short while) the tallest building in a certain bit of Europe, that Leeds Met Developments will be the tallest student accommodation in Europe. If you look at the reasons why the Corporation decided to build the Town Hall, it was entirely in competition with Bradford. If Bradford had not built St George’s Hall, then our Town Hall would probably never have been built. One of the Latin mottoes inside the Victoria Hall is LABOR OMNIA VINCIT, which translates as INDUSTRY OVERCOMES ALL. It is a very typically Victorian sentiment, but it also happens to be the motto of Bradford’s Council, & was a very public poke in the eye for Bradford, when we had built a Hall bigger than theirs!Is it not the case that these ‘Mercantile Princes’ have ALWAYS been the life-blood of Leeds. Right from the signing of the first town charter in 1207, the reason was COMMERCE. The town of Leeds was created so that people could make money in it. Perhaps the only thing that has changed in 800 years is that different resources have been at a premium. Once, it was the trade in cotton & wool, the engineering. Now, for a short time, probably, it is space for accommodation, space for retail, space for offices…If these Mercantile Princes / Developers have always been in charge, have always shaped the city & the skyline, then what is it that we are proud of? What is it that we mourn from the past & miss in the present?What is it about US (the people who are not developers, rich business men, decision-makers), which makes us proud of ‘our’ City? Has it ever been ‘ours’ in the past, in a way which it is not now?What do you think?     It is fashionable within a vociferous minority to decry the Victorian industrialists who developed Leeds but it is at best an exageration and at worst a distortion to say that they were motivated simply by a desire to make the maximum amount of money from the minimum space and by paying minimum wages to their employees . Had that been the case people such as Marshall would have erected the equivalent of today's retail-park shed .A desire to make money , personal pride and undoubtedly a wish for self-aggrandisment played a part but so did civic pride . These people were proud of being part of a very important industrial city and wished to enhance the perception of that city .I am proud of their achievements whilst acknowledging their faults .Their motives were whiter-than-white when compared wth those of John Poulson the architect of the international pool who was subsequently found guilty of corrupting local authority officials .

Oh come on! You are seriously trying to tell me that there were no cases of corruption / malpractice amongst the people who built Victorian Leeds??? So, are we saying that we think that current developers have no sense of Civic Pride? How does this manifest itself, in the actual appearance of the buildings that are currently being put up around Leeds?    

Hang on mate!! Let us wake up yet

Phill_d wrote: Hang on mate!! Let us wake up yet I was up at 0245 for the 0505 to KX Phill,so speak for yourself matey!!Wow,what a muse Munki.Your thoughts are certainly valid and thought provoking and the comparisons between the Victorian age and that of now are certainly accurate.I think the civic pride we have in "Old " Leeds for new Leeds is being stirred again,well certainly it is for me,but for different reasons.The buildings of the Victorian/Edwardian age, though erected for all the reasons you mention have one major difference to the rapid expansion that we see in Leeds today,that is the buildings such as the Town Hall were built by quality craftsmen ,the Masters and their apprentices,where as today ,it is all prefabricated off site and put into place.Now im sure the Victorians,a thrifty lot if there ever was one,would have done the same if they could,but it was not an option open to them,so what we see in these magnificent buildings is not only the dreams of contemporary business men,the expression of civic pride,but also by some of the finest examples of craftsmanship you will find in these isles,detail and pride went into the pillars,facades,staircases,windows and mosaics of these buildings.This can be seen every time i look at these buildings,and they still have the wow factor.Im sure as these newer buildings have been around for a while that they will be appreciated more,certainly by future generations who will have grown up with them.Personally im all for the developments we have,as long as they are of no detriment to our heritage.The new generation of boom in Leeds fills me with pride,after years of neglect some of those empty spaces we have all lived with for the past decades are coming to life, a new and shiny Leeds is coming out of the ground (though how long for ?)For example he development of the Eastgate/Harewood quarter is badly needed,those areas either side of Eastgate have been a dump for as long as i can remember.The modern boom is seeing Leeds beginning attract attention on a larger scale,ie in European,whereas,like it or not,the Old Leeds did not and never really did.I like the higher profile and the gradual shedding of the grimey image that perpetuates in the mind of southerners and their percieved stereotypes of Loiners,but more importantly the investment that comes with this will provide jobs,newer (hopefull more affordable) homes,better transport infrastucture and a general all round quality of life in LeedsHowever i think Leeds is lacking in something that i believe is essential to its identity,something that makes us stand out.Leeds has lacked a building or piece of art of a national and international standing that makes it unmistakeably identified with Leeds.Ask anyone form outside of Leeds or West Yorkshire to look at a picture of the Town Hall and i would wager that 8 or 9 out of 10 would not be able to place it,yet show a picture of the Liver Building , the Tyne Bridge or the Angel of the North and most people would not only be able to tell you where it was from but also its name.Though i welcome all the redevelopment its a shame that an internationally prestigious contemporary building of quality and distinction or piece of public art/sculpture along the lines of the Brick Man/Giant Owl could not also be incorporated into these developments.

[quotenick="cnosni"] Phill_d wrote: Hang on mate!! Let us wake up yet I was up at 0245 for the 0505 to KX Phill,so speak for yourself matey!!Hey mate.. I was still up partying then     

[quotenick="Phill_d"] cnosni wrote: Phill_d wrote: Hang on mate!! Let us wake up yet I was up at 0245 for the 0505 to KX Phill,so speak for yourself matey!!Hey mate.. I was still up partying then      Was that you i saw bringing up a kebab outside the Queens?

munki wrote: Oh come on! You are seriously trying to tell me that there were no cases of corruption / malpractice amongst the people who built Victorian Leeds??? So, are we saying that we think that current developers have no sense of Civic Pride? How does this manifest itself, in the actual appearance of the buildings that are currently being put up around Leeds?     " Oh come on ! " Not the sort of language a Victorian public-servant would have used surely !Perhaps you could tell us of any conviction in the Victorian era for corruption or malpractice ?I very much doubt that modern-day developers ( with the exception of Cadick ) have any sense of connection with and pride in Leeds anywhere near that of Victorians such as Marshall or Barran .I also wonder if present-day planning departments would approve the plans for buildings such as Marshall Mills and St. Paul's House .Elsewhere " cnosni " vividly and accurately describes the shared pride and craftsmanship of every one involved ( very apparent today a century later ) in the planning and construction of these buildings .I doubt that today's buildings ( if they still exist ) will show those traits in 2108 .

.Their motives were whiter-than-white when compared wth those of John Poulson the architect of the international pool who was subsequently found guilty of corrupting local authority officials . Poulson was no saint, but IMO his biggest crime was getting caught. Corruption in construction is rife - believe me I know! He was something of an outsider and when the music stopped those who would normally in such circumstances have found him a chair, deserted him.He designed what is now "La Cucina" in Morley -( formerly the Gas Showrooms), it was controversial in the fifties when it was built, but it's still there and IMO something of a classic - it's certainly better than some of the monstrosities (Norwich Union) that were erected in central Leeds in the fifties and sixties. However, the International Pool was certainly bad mouthed by the YEP and the Tory opposition on Leeds Council when it was built. I haven't been that often, but it is and always has been IMO something of an eyesore.I don't mind the DSS building (my wife hates it) I think that the courts building on Westgate is excellent. I mourn the destruction of Brunswick Chapel (nr Merrion Centre) a classic Georgian building. Those who were responsible for Leeds's classic buildings deserve some praise. But the privately funded ones were built on profits from child labour, sweated labour, exploitation and non existent industrial safety. The much maligned Trade Unions were started as a reaction to such conditons and have much to be proud of. Leeds IMO is a magnificent city, my favourite building: The "flat iron" near the Adelphi. A candidate ( I speak as someone from Morley) for Leeds Met's ugliest building - Morley Central Methodist Hall - the ultimate sixties building. Ugly, poorly built, cold, inconvenient, not user friendly a nightmare.

I don't have my copies of Victorian court records to hand... ;-)I'm not sure that there were many prosecutions for corruption in Victorian times because what we would now consider to be 'corruption', in the Paulson sense, would probably have been seen as the norm in Victorian times!