Musings.

[munki]

Hello everyone on Secret Leeds!I am trying to write a paper for a conference about 'ownership' in city centres... whether or not people feel like they own their city centre, & what might need to change in order to make people feel more like they own their city / city centre.I am a bit stuck with it at the moment, so I thought I might throw some questions out to you lovely people.Who's online on this lovely winter's day?

[munki]

Question 1.When you are walking around Leeds City Centre, do you feel like it BELONGS TO YOU, as citizens & rate payers of this good city?

[simonm]

Yes and No really. I'm really proud that I hail from Leeds, but I really do believe that the council, as far as the centre goes, is only interested in attracting the "big money" companies and keeping them sweet. Take the market buildings for instance. Nothing like their European counterparts, full of bustling people all after the freshest produce or decent living items, be it clothes, houshold goods etc. Yes there are some pretty good units doing that, but on the whole it seems to be the attraction of the drunks and idiots.So many stalls are closed down and rents are going through the roof. Why?We can walk around in safety, due to the pedestrianisation, but it feels like any other city centre to me, nothing for me as a loiner to feel that it is mine. Is that rubbish?

[munki]

No, it's not rubbish. It's a very valid point.I honestly believe that the people who make the decisions about city centres... what there is there for people to see & do, & so on, have the best intentions. But... What is it that they want you to do / enjoy when you are in the City Centre? Earn money & spend money...Question 2.Is there MORE TO LIFE than earning money & spending money?

[wsmith]

I truly hope so.

[chameleon]

Yes, of course - and certainly in terms of the city centre. I am one of those who spends their working day in town and frankly, I find it claustraphobic, and rather impersonal.'Getting away' from the sterile and commercial front can be very difficult. On the one hand, progress demands redevelopment (and is needed in some areas!) but this seems to take away the adventure and even mystery of being able to wander along parts of the city. Many of these areas seem to breathe 'keep out' at you as they become the province of developers who prescribe what you can do and where (and even when) you can do it, I certainly do not aprove of public streets being given over to private shopping malls, another form of exclusion to my mind.And so barran, green spaces disapear to be replaced by carefully 'designed' green amenity areas with no character or feeling of relaxation. on the other hand, Park Square has survived and recently being well refurbished but retaining its original character, illustrating that character and heritage can be retained and preserved - its worth demonstrated for everyone to see during the summer months, so many people there - not a spare inch of grass left to sit on!Compare that with Millenium Square. Once a beautiful and tranquil garden area, no paved with yorkshire stone (already badly damaged stone at that). Surrounded by as much as could be fitted in, almost lost from view to the passer-by is my perception little more than a thoroughfare to other parts with nothing to create an impression of being there - another example of reaching to the modern world - there was nothing wrong with the old one. Far, I think, from a fitting, lasting icon to the millenium. Well I've ranted on a little there Munki and I'm not sure it is what you want, but at least perhaps some thoughts regarding a small part of your question.

[munki]

No, no, this is exactly what I want to hear, chameleon. I think Millennium Square represents an interesting experiment in ownership of Civic Space... It will be interesting to see how the people of Leeds think of the place in one year, on ten years time, after the city's museum has opened there, so that it is surrounded by Town Hall, Hospital, Civic Hall, Museum, Theatre... A place to be born, a place to register your name, a place to die, a place from which the city is administered... I like MS when it is empty, not being filled with scaffolding & ice as it is now, or German Markets as it was before Xmas.Park Square is lovely, but it has surely stayed lovely because it is surrounded by the offices of solicitors, lawyers, very wealthy people. A bit of green & flowers to keep the moneymakers happy?    

[Brandy]

chameleon wrote: Yes, of course - and certainly in terms of the city centre. I am one of those who spends their working day in town and frankly, I find it claustraphobic, and rather impersonal.'Getting away' from the sterile and commercial front can be very difficult. On the one hand, progress demands redevelopment (and is needed in some areas!) but this seems to take away the adventure and even mystery of being able to wander along parts of the city. Many of these areas seem to breathe 'keep out' at you as they become the province of developers who prescribe what you can do and where (and even when) you can do it, I certainly do not aprove of public streets being given over to private shopping malls, another form of exclusion to my mind.And so barran, green spaces disapear to be replaced by carefully 'designed' green amenity areas with no character or feeling of relaxation. on the other hand, Park Square has survived and recently being well refurbished but retaining its original character, illustrating that character and heritage can be retained and preserved - its worth demonstrated for everyone to see during the summer months, so many people there - not a spare inch of grass left to sit on!Compare that with Millenium Square. Once a beautiful and tranquil garden area, no paved with yorkshire stone (already badly damaged stone at that). Surrounded by as much as could be fitted in, almost lost from view to the passer-by is my perception little more than a thoroughfare to other parts with nothing to create an impression of being there - another example of reaching to the modern world - there was nothing wrong with the old one. Far, I think, from a fitting, lasting icon to the millenium. Well I've ranted on a little there Munki and I'm not sure it is what you want, but at least perhaps some thoughts regarding a small part of your question. i could not have put it any better than that chameleon your bang on!

[chameleon]

'I like MS when it is empty, not being filled with scaffolding & ice as it is now, or German Markets as it was before Xmas.'Exactly - it has to be filled with something, an otherwise empty void. There is little to encourage patronage without these 'added extras' which in themselves often apeal to only a limted audience. There is a small garden with water features but these feel remote, crowded into a corner as a gesture. You rightly say, MS is surrounded by ..... Grand buildings. Indeed it is, buldings of character (provided one's eyes are closed when passing that incongruous structure in the top right corner!), but the square remains a bland void affording little more than a thoroughfare between them and little more without special events, nothing to cause one to idley dally for a while, almost as though this was the bit left over! A stark contrast to the bubbling activity its surrounding buildings invite, a stark contrast to the gardens which it replaces.I'm sure there is no doubt that in the mind's-eye of its originator lie aspirations that MS would be the monument the new centuary deserved, a focal point for today's community and a diverse range of activity - but in passing to the creator, the vission seems to have become confused, even faded with a suggestion that it was viewed in isolation rather than fully encompassing its own environment. It was a change, or as you suggest, an experiment, but in my mind one which failed.The conclusion must be that whilst change is inevitable and change is necessary, a far greater depth of thinking must be engaged, the implications of a given design, even location, most carefully considered, and not least - people's real opinions, before the event.Change can work; I stated my dislike of streets being closed and given over to developers. I stand by this as a principle but it would cherlish of me not to acknowledge where this approach has worked. Queen Victoria Street must surely demonstrate this. The rebirth of the County Arcade and return to its former glory has been matched by the conversion of the the adjacent (former) street, mimicking the real arcade yet at the same time being quite different through the use of more modern materials and technology, though the two blend as one, failing only in their availability.The Harewood Quarter is next. Let's hope that lessons learned from earlier phases can be incorporated, it needs to be friendly, it should not be sterile or rely on the hope that the hype of creative modern design will please. People are attracted to the new, but not infrequently gravitate to the more familiar. Most of all - it must be attractive, fuctional and be truly accessible to all.

[Bramley4woods]

munki wrote: No, no, this is exactly what I want to hear, chameleon. I think Millennium Square represents an interesting experiment in ownership of Civic Space... It will be interesting to see how the people of Leeds think of the place in one year, on ten years time, after the city's museum has opened there, so that it is surrounded by Town Hall, Hospital, Civic Hall, Museum, Theatre... A place to be born, a place to register your name, a place to die, a place from which the city is administered... I like MS when it is empty, not being filled with scaffolding & ice as it is now, or German Markets as it was before Xmas.Park Square is lovely, but it has surely stayed lovely because it is surrounded by the offices of solicitors, lawyers, very wealthy people. A bit of green & flowers to keep the moneymakers happy?     Solicitors and lawyers are not moneymakers. They do not create any wealth or anything useful at all.They are human vultures. Ask anybody who's been through a divorce. I don't qualify BTW, but I have observed many times that once solicitors get involved with a troubled marriage :a) It never recovers, and b) They always make their money out of it.I do feel disconnected with most/all of the recent building in Leeds, the "Leeds Look" buildings of the last 25 years, including the 2 bedroom 2 bathroom "Turkey Twizzler" apartments. Surely this goes for everybody (No ?), nobody could have any feelings for buildings like that.The earliest of them are already deteriorating (going rusty) and will prove too expensive to maintain so it won't get done.So best preserve what we've got folks. To get back on topic, as regards "Ownership" of the Civic buildings, the trouble as I see it is that the price of land in the centre of the city is such that we won't see any more big positive changes, no new parks in the city centre for instance, no more grand Civic Buildings once Mil. Square (Built on Council Land) is completed in fact we'll be lucky if we can avoid the City Fathers selling off Civic Buildings and outsourcing their functions to a call centre in India. That may be an exaggeration, (But in 15 years who knows? If everything else has ben outsourced) but the pressure will bear first around the periphery Eg, the York Road library.