Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

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harrym1byt
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun 22 Mar, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Post by harrym1byt »

iansmithofotley wrote:
Wed 31 Dec, 2014 11:23 pm
Our D.S. was David Harry Clarkson. David ended up as a Ch. Supt. and he was in charge of Holbeck Division when I was an inspector there in 1988. I understand that David has been quite ill recently and has returned to live in the Leeds area.
Ian
Was that Dave Clarkson who lived at Garforth?

harrym1byt
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun 22 Mar, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Post by harrym1byt »

harrym1byt wrote:
Tue 18 Aug, 2020 9:12 pm
iansmithofotley wrote:
Wed 31 Dec, 2014 11:23 pm
Our D.S. was David Harry Clarkson. David ended up as a Ch. Supt. and he was in charge of Holbeck Division when I was an inspector there in 1988. I understand that David has been quite ill recently and has returned to live in the Leeds area.
Ian
Was that Dave Clarkson who lived at Garforth?
A bit more research suggests it was.

He lived just around the corner from where I live and a bit of a family friend. He spent his final years sadly in a mobility scooter and passed away in 2015.

iansmithofotley
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Joined: Fri 28 Dec, 2007 4:10 pm

Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Post by iansmithofotley »

When I first worked with David Harry Clarkson, in the C.I.D. at Ireland Wood Police Station in 1967, he lived at Templenewsam, with his wife Dorothy and their family. At that time, he owned some land in Garforth, which I think he bought as an investment with a view to future development but there were problems with planning permission. He also owned a shop in Garforth, which I think was managed by Dorothy.

After David’s retirement from the Police Force around the early 1990's, he moved out to the Ryedale area of Yorkshire, near to Malton, and got involved in local politics. Eventually, David suffered from Motor Neuron Disease and returned to the Leeds/Garforth area, but I don’t know when this was as I lost touch with him.

David died on 17th October 2015 aged 76 years. His wife, Dorothy, died recently on 23rd July 2020 aged 82 years.

I have great memories of working with David and he was great fun to work with. There was never a dull moment due to his charismatic personality and style. He also ‘led from the front’ and was an inspirational leader. I learned a great deal from him.

harrym1byt
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Joined: Sun 22 Mar, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Post by harrym1byt »

The shop, which is still there, I think I am correct in suggesting it is 'Dorothy Annes' on Main St Garforth. I also think I am correct in suggesting he ended up living in a large house on Church Lane, Garforth. A really nice guy.

jma
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Joined: Fri 05 Aug, 2016 3:38 pm

Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Post by jma »

Rather late in the day but I see that wikipedia says that Yvonne Fletcher's number was 4257.

I don't know how reliable that is because I believe all Met officers have a unique warrant number allocated when they are attested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yvonne_Fletcher

iansmithofotley
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Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Post by iansmithofotley »

Hi Mick – I always thought that the London Metropolitan Police was the only force that had ’Warrant Numbers’. The ‘Warrant Number’ was a distinct number, which remained with an officer from joining, until retiring or leaving and it remained despite any future promotions. It is possible that other forces had a similar system, but I don’t know.

I thought that the ‘Warrant Number’ was a different number from the ‘Collar Number’, which was the only ‘number’ allocated for officers in the other forces, as far as I am aware. In the Met., I don’t know if it is still the same but Collar Numbers could change when officers moved between different departments or divisions and often had the Police Station Divisional Code, in letters besides the collar number.

As you are well aware, when you and I were promoted to the rank of sergeant in the West Yorkshire Police and the Leeds City Police, we kept the same Collar Numbers (153 and 681) but when we were promoted to the rank of inspector in the West Yorkshire Police, we lost our Collar Numbers and had no other ‘number’ for operational purposes (we had a ‘Man Number’ for Administration and Pay purposes but it was never displayed anywhere other than on pay slips).

Having said all this, I found a website about Met. Warrant Numbers and it shows that Warrant Numbers were just a consecutive number for officers who had joined the Met. since 1829.

So far as relates to Yvonne Fletcher, she joined the Met. in 1977 and was issued the Warrant Number 4257, as you have said. I presume that this was possibly her Collar Number as well (but it may not have been). However, looking at the charts on the website, it is hard to believe that male officers, nowadays, have Collar Numbers of six digits (and possibly one or two Divisional letters as well). I also noticed that female officers in the Met. used to have their own consecutive Warrant Numbers but the numbers became consecutive for male and female officers, together, from 1993 (no doubt due to the Equal Opportunities trend at about that time).

http://www.historybytheyard.co.uk/warrant_nos.htm

Having said all this, I found this article about the Met. which shows that everything has now changed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collar_number

Although Wikipedia is a brilliant website, the information is not always 100% accurate.

There are a couple of photographs showing Metropolitan Policewomen displaying their Collar Numbers on this website. These Collar Numbers do not match those shown on the Warrant Numbers site.

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-n ... s-15994257

Ian

jma
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Joined: Fri 05 Aug, 2016 3:38 pm

Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Post by jma »

In the far off days when I used to read the Police Review whenever retirements were listed, Met officers' warrant numbers were published. I cannot remember how many digits they had reached then, but it was way too many to fit a collar or epaulette, and it will be even more now. I hadn't realised that women originally had a different series of warrant numbers. Whoever raised the query about Yvonne Fletcher wanted to know what number would have been on her uniform.

When the personnel system was computerised in West Yorkshire, they began again with numbers to include year of joining. I can't remember mine because I never used it but it begins 67. At some stage, senior officers were required to wear numbers in certain circumstances such as public order. I only know that because I saw one of my neighbours on the box when he was a chief inspector and for a moment, I thought he had grabbed a PC's raincoat to keep dry.

LucasC
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Joined: Sun 31 Oct, 2021 11:39 am

Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Post by LucasC »

Dear JMA and Volvo Jack.

My name is Lucas and I am the step-son of Ian Payne Ross, who you refer to above.

I have found this site as our beloved Ian, passed away at home on the 29th October 2021. Aged 71. We are deeply saddened by this, but happy that Ian’s memory lives on in forums such as these.

Lucas
jma wrote:
Sat 13 Aug, 2016 11:33 pm
volvojack

I remembered that among my souvenirs I have a badge of the type I mentioned in my earlier reply. If this works, I've attached a picture at the foot of this post.

I presume that in the picture you referred to, it will be on a high-collared tunic next to the wearer's number. More recently, on the style of jacket with lapels worn with a collar and tie, they were displayed on the epaulettes, above the officer's number, even though these continued to be referred to as collar numbers. Some other forces, but by no means all, had their own badges of this type, more often worn on the lapels than the epaulettes.

As a bit of useless information, I can date the change of tunic fairly accurately as recounted to me by MiggyBill's Uncle Dennis who told me that he was one of the contingent of Leeds City Police officers who went to London to see the Queen ie to help line the route at the Coronation in June 1952. They were taken by Leeds City Transport bus to the railway station and as the conductor was unfamiliar with the new uniforms, he assumed they were strangers to Leeds and began to give them detailed instructions about which way to go to catch a train.

After that, they were phased in gradually with the older style tunic eventually being worn only on nights, till they were discarded altogether.

Ian

Yes, although 921 Ian Payne Ross started at Dewsbury Road, when I moved to Wortley in 1974 he was on my shift, so I know him from that time. The 921 who knocked on my door was his predecessor - the first PC 921 in Leeds.

badge.jpg

PS

After posting this it occurred to me to check my copy of the official history of Leeds Police. It confirms Uncle Dennis's story, noting that 86 members of the force in their new uniforms travelled to London on 31 May to be ready for duty on 2 June along the route (but no mention of the confused bus conductor.)

jma
Posts: 491
Joined: Fri 05 Aug, 2016 3:38 pm

Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Post by jma »

LucasC

Welcome to the forum.

I am sorry to hear of your recent bereavement.

In the midst of all my tales of long ago, there's nothing I can say about Ian, other than the few words you have quoted. When I checked back for the context of my post, I think I saw that Ian Smith (of Otley) has mentioned seeing him more recently.

iansmithofotley
Posts: 558
Joined: Fri 28 Dec, 2007 4:10 pm

Re: Former West Yorks Police Officer's collar numbers

Post by iansmithofotley »

LucasC,

I am sorry to hear of Ian’s death.

As I have said previously, I lost touch with Ian around the late 1980’s/early 1990’s. I remember him living at Richmond Terrace in Otley and he moved to Ilkley. He left the Police Force prematurely and he got very friendly with another West Yorkshire (ex West Riding) constable called Nick Ratcliffe, who also left the Police Force prematurely.

Nick bought a long established Sailing and Chandlery business in Otley called ‘Olley of Otley’ in Gay Lane, from Brian Olley. Nick had no interest in sailing and tried to change the business to mainly windsurfing. At that time, my eldest son, who was a keen dinghy sailor and windsurfer, worked there on a Saturday, which he had done since 1984, with Brian Olley. Nick’s business went downhill and there was a mysterious overnight fire. My son turned up to work there the following day, as usual, and found the premises, which were in an old mill, completely burnt out. This was in 1991 and that was the end of my eldest son’s Saturday job.

After Nick bought Olley’s, Ian decided to start up a windsurfing business himself. He called it ‘The Wind Works’ and he ran the venture from a small building at Otley Mills off Ilkley Road. My youngest son got to know Ian through windsurfing and went to work at the Wind Works on a Saturday from around 1989. The business did not last long. Around this time, Ian had moved from Otley to Ilkley.

Nick and Ian were also running windsurfing courses on a small lake at Ripon Racecourse, that too didn’t last long as both windsurfing businesses ceased trading.

I know that Nick was living in Addingham but I have no idea what happened to him.

Also, I have no idea what happened to Ian - he moved away from Ilkley and I never saw or heard of him afterwards. What happened to Ian after he moved from Ilkley, where did he go, and what did he do for a living?

Ian

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