My walk around Victorian Holbeck.

[The Parksider]

jim wrote: Proceeding to the 1834 map of Baines and Newsome, it can be seen that the Wortley Beck splits in two just north of where it was later bridged by Brown Lane. A smaller stream travelling somewhat north of the main waterway passes just south of the later Danube an Oswald side streets to Gelderd Road, crosses the junction of Spence Lane and Domestic Street immediately to the south of Holbeck Lane, and appears to rejoin the main flow by the site of Phill D's "mystery bridge - whereupon it bifurcates again to become respectively Benyon Beck and Holbeck.The smaller stream from the Brown Lane junction is variously labelled as Mill Green Goit or Little Hol Beck. The larger stream is labelled Low Beck. Yes! I have the "Mill Green Goit" being run from a weir on Low Beck through to the Wellington Flour Mill, in 1854.I wonder if the Holbeck Corn Mill (steam) replaced that - Is corn the same as flour anyone???.I don't have all the maps but the boundary marks on the map follow the goit exactly and although the goit does not show on the OS map past Wortley/Holbeck Lane junction the boundary does and goes in a straight line to run into the Aire at Monk Bridge.Indeed the properties do not straddle the boundary but are built just up to it, so maybe the goit was a really old landmark?I need to go the Brown lane to look for the weir!!!

[jim]

Hi Parksider. Most of the maps I referred to above were in a map roll sold by the YEP through the paper. That was possibly eight to ten years ago, but I doubt they are still available from the YEP. They were certainly a bargain at the time. The Reference Library held a great collection at one time, but I don't know if they still do. Old-maps are a great internet source for post 1850 maps as you already know. The Village Atlas, North and West Yorkshire is good for the wider area, and shows OS maps for the 1850s, 1890s, and 1910s at 1" scale.For transport history in Leeds, G.L. Crowther's National Atlas Showing Canals, Navigable Rivers, Mineral Tramroads, Railways and Tramways Vol 3e is an annotated version of the Godfrey Maps sectionalised ad with useful additions.Most of the above could be available over the internet, but the rest of what I have acquired over the years would probably only turn up by chance at second hand shops - and unfortunately there don't seem to be many left!

[The Parksider]

jim wrote: in 1770 ( T. Jeffreys' map ) the only waterway shown south of the river in Holbeck is the one identified later as Benyon Beck. It enters the Aire just west of Leeds Bridge more or less due north of the site of The Red Lion, having passed midway between Water Lane ( east ) and Meadow Road from the vicinity of Meadow Road. There is no sign of any waterway near the present outlet alongside Water Lane ( west )Giles' map of 1815 shows the "missing" Hol Beck now running alongside Water Lane (west ) in its present position, Brilliant Jim!I have on the OS maps the Low Beck running past the Holbeck Mills and Low Hall Mills (where it could be now called Hol Beck) cutting south before becoming Benyon Beck, at the end of sweet street west then running past Marshall Mills.The problem is that once the beck gets to Benyon Mills near Victoria Road it stops, but if it didn't it would as you have found - wound it's way to the Aire near the Old Red Lion.As for the dissapearing Holbeck - I don't think it dissapeared - all the evidence seems to point to the Benyon Beck being diverted back up to water lane, making the current channel of the supposed Holbeck alongside water lane a possible man made diversion of the Benyon Beck.That fits with everything we have both found, and the final point to consider is that the railways brought a lot of civil engineering to the Holbeck area, and steam engines to run the mills - so it is logical to assume the old waterways for the mills were obliterated and diverted by the railway civil engineers and new mills built powered by steam.What a romantic scenario - that the railways brought steam power to Holbeck whilst obliterating water power at the same time!!

[Cardiarms]

I'll try to have a mooch at the works mpas when I get back.On another note, I had a wander round Matthew Murray's grave today. A pretty shabby corner at this time of year.

[jim]

The Parksider wrote: As for the dissapearing Holbeck - I don't think it dissapeared - all the evidence seems to point to the Benyon Beck being diverted back up to water lane, making the current channel of the supposed Holbeck alongside water lane a possible man made diversion of the Benyon Beck. Hi Parksider, I'm still sure that the flow of the Holbeck down Water Lane side from 1950 to1970 at least was considerably greater than now, and am still interested where the missing volume is. I still can't rule out Benyon Beck being buried somewhere in the vicinity of it's old course. In particular, note that a fair section of it was still in place up to 1901 as far as the Sweet Street railway overbridge. That to me indicates that in all probability there would still be an underground flow to the river from that point, possibly with an underground weir in the area around the Bridge Road/Water Lane Junction. The alternatives would be yet another diverging man-made drain somewhere, or a massive decrease in Leeds area rainfall!    

[PC - Dublin]

Thanks to Phill, Parksider, Jim for your responses. It reinforces for me the brilliance of Secret Leeds with so many people carrying out detailed and professional investigations to queries. The understanding of becks / watercourses / rivers holds a fascination for me and especially in "Holbeck", given its name by the stream.PC.and thank you again.    

[jim]

Cardiarms wrote: I'll try to have a mooch at the works maps when I get back. Thanks Cardiarms, I'll be looking forward to seeing what you can turn up.When this blasted cold dies down I'll go and check the flows of the Wortley Beck where it's still visible above ground, hopefully in the Branch Road area, to see how it squares with what can be seen flowing at the side of Water Lane - and making an allowance for the Mill Shaw contribution.( I've always been an optimistic guesser! )    

[Cardiarms]

One reason for the reduced flows may be the diversion of domestic and trade effluent to the sewer rather than the nearest water course.

[The Parksider]

Cardiarms wrote: I'll try to have a mooch at the works mpas when I get back.On another note, I had a wander round Matthew Murray's grave today. A pretty shabby corner at this time of year. Mrrrays grave and monument should be in the courtyard of the foundry behind the Midnight Bell but what one does about this sort of thing who knows!Godfreys 1847 map shows the Hol Beck pretty much engineered to go alongside water lane with two very interesting diversions around old cottages further pointing to a man made chanel. These cottage sites are small car parks now I thinkOn this channel is the flax mill (thread and Yarn) but it has marked "engine beds" so I assume they used a steam engine for power from across the road at Murray's place and not water power.At the same time Benyon back is stongly marked at the back of the foundry having pased through Marshalls Mill. After Benyon Mill a much reduced channel then heads across Victiria Road then Wilson St (through what is Hindle Valves today) and past an old dressing mill before looking like it's channeled into the Aire - as Jim says near to the old Red Lion.Cardiarms "King of water" I look forward to your research!!

[jim]

Hi Cardiarms. I accept your point, of course, but have realised I clarify my position better if one compares the flow to be seen in Tilly's photos of 25/03/10 at 19.19 and 19.22 on p5 of the Cockersdale Mills and Watercourses thread with what is apparent in Phill's great shot of 30/12/10 at 18.27 higher up this page.The difference is that the flow shown in Tilly's views represents around half of the total supply that should eventually arrive at Water Lane, while Phill's shows all of what has arrived there. I'm afraid I'm still puzzled.Or is Phill's photo of the Sheepscar Beck, published here to make his point about channel design? The apparent flow is not, however, much different to that usually to be seen at Water Lane, so it's as broad as long - to coin a phrase, or more likely distort one.