Coal Mining in East Leeds

[The Parksider]

The Parksider wrote: A further historical reference was made to the passing of the seacroft estate by James 1st (I think) in 1603 to someone for services rendered in battles. It said that seacroft at that time had two "watermills". The book concluded these could only be in the wyke beck valley. As that is distinctive from windmills I would presume that these may well have been the Corn Mill and an Iron Foundry.As the date 1603 does not fit the last Foundry Mill this could very well be a reference to the earlier mill from which the slags which created "cynder hills" were produce by the side of the Wyke Beck. Leodis now has a couple of shots of the Corn Mill called a Flour Mill and three shots of Smeatons waterwheel. The narrative says the mill dates back to 12th. Century, but that was an earlier mill on the same site. It also says it was fed by Wyke beck yet the first picture of the mill shows (I think) the launder on columns bringing the water into the back of the mill from the mill ponds, fed by wyke beck tributaries.Leodis is getting even better!!

[chameleon]

Sounds as though our theories are proving correct - any chance of copy/pasting a link to the pics Parkie old boy, been a longgg day and searching seems a bit much at the minute.Very pleasant environment on here tonight don't you think

[The Parksider]

chameleon wrote: Sounds as though our theories are proving correct - any chance of copy/pasting a link to the pics Parkie old boy, been a longgg day and searching seems a bit much at the minute.Very pleasant environment on here tonight don't you think Just search Leodis with "seacroft" and the mill piccy's come up very soon after the A for arial (photo) bit.It comes under D for Demolished Mill, I think it should come under W for W..hat Chameleon wants to see....I find tonights environmental ambiance on SL a mixture of intelligent sophistication, and enthusiastic delight.........

[chameleon]

The Parksider wrote: chameleon wrote: Sounds as though our theories are proving correct - any chance of copy/pasting a link to the pics Parkie old boy, been a longgg day and searching seems a bit much at the minute.Very pleasant environment on here tonight don't you think Just search Leodis with "seacroft" and the mill piccy's come up very soon after the A for arial (photo) bit.It comes under D for Demolished Mill, I think it should come under W for W..hat Chameleon wants to see....I find tonights environmental ambiance on SL a mixture of intelligent sophistication, and enthusiastic delight.........

[The Parksider]

chameleon wrote: Steven Burt''s book includes Grumpy's quote about the granting of rights by de Sommerville and, goes on to say as we know, there was a plentiful supply of ore and that, round hay and woodlands of Seacroft provided the raw material for charcoal burners - rather than coal?On page 11 it is also stated that (within the Roundhay) 'the rich band of coal was constantly exploited....workings so deep, water driven pumps had to be used to extract the water' so, yes - where might that have been Grumpytramp? (Intriguing how this one goes on and on... Indeed it goes on....A meticilous search of the Tithe Map project shows fields upstream of the possible site of the first Foundry at seacroft (on the foxwood farm site) marked as "Coal Pit Close" Low Coal pit close" and "Little coal pit close".These three sites - arable land by the 1830's are situated by the boundaries today of easterly road, wyke beck and the little stream that runs down "The Rein" into Wyke beck.As mapping was so poor pre-1854 we can only go on clues but you really can't get any stronger clues than that.What a hive of industry?? A mill dam streamside just below the park, with a coal mine streamside just over easterly road (needing pumps in such low ground??) and then onto a foundry further downstream.I think GT should be told.....

[chameleon]

The Parksider wrote: chameleon wrote: Steven Burt''s book includes Grumpy's quote about the granting of rights by de Sommerville and, goes on to say as we know, there was a plentiful supply of ore and that, round hay and woodlands of Seacroft provided the raw material for charcoal burners - rather than coal?On page 11 it is also stated that (within the Roundhay) 'the rich band of coal was constantly exploited....workings so deep, water driven pumps had to be used to extract the water' so, yes - where might that have been Grumpytramp? (Intriguing how this one goes on and on... Indeed it goes on....A meticilous search of the Tithe Map project shows fields upstream of the possible site of the first Foundry at seacroft (on the foxwood farm site) marked as "Coal Pit Close" Low Coal pit close" and "Little coal pit close".These three sites - arable land by the 1830's are situated by the boundaries today of easterly road, wyke beck and the little stream that runs down "The Rein" into Wyke beck.As mapping was so poor pre-1854 we can only go on clues but you really can't get any stronger clues than that.What a hive of industry?? A mill dam streamside just below the park, with a coal mine streamside just over easterly road (needing pumps in such low ground??) and then onto a foundry further downstream.I think GT should be told..... This story is full of never ending revelations, hard to recall how simple it was when we first started Parkie

[grumpytramp]

The Parksider wrote: A meticilous search of the Tithe Map project shows fields upstream of the possible site of the first Foundry at seacroft (on the foxwood farm site) marked as "Coal Pit Close" Low Coal pit close" and "Little coal pit close". A really excellent piece of work Parkie ......... the names really are ghostly echoes of ancient occupation and usage.I have posted a sketch that I had posted earlier in the thread for reference.The plots you refer to Coal Pit Close (Plot 452 - Seacroft), Low Coal Pit Close (Plot 454) and Little Coal Pit Close (Plot 452) neatly tie in to the area occupied by the outcrops Black Band Coal (and of course its valuable Ironstone) and probably the overlaying Crow Coal (a pretty decent quality coal which was probably 15-20"thick) which you will see outrop all three plots. The references to "low" may well be referring to the Black Band CoalRunning with the your riff [ for others see http://www.secretleeds.com/forum/Messag ... eadID=2927 for a start on using the apportionments elements of the Tithe Map project] there are a few other ghostly reminders of the areas past mining activitiesPlots 519 [Pit Holes], 529 [Pit Holes] and 530 [Pit Hills] are all in areas where the Permian Lower Magnesium Limestone sits unconforably on Coal Measures in the vicinity of Seacroft. I had not appreciated until I had a look at the Solid Geology Sheet that this outlier was notable for being easily the most westerly outlier of the main Permian outcrops in West Yorkshire. The names must record workings in the limestone for the production of burnt lime for agricultural improvement (a happy coincidence limestone and adjacent wood and coal)Plot 326 [Grass Pit] occupies an area to the west of the junction of Foundary Lane and York Road and neatly coincides with workings in the outcrop of the Middleton MainPlot 420 [Blue Clay Close] occupies a portion of land which I think could be interpertated to be about the outcrop of the Better Bed Coal and of course its FireclayThen of course there is Plot 416 [Great Pit Close] well the name suggest much!It is more than a happy coincidence that it sits adjacent to the areas of woodlands shown on early OS sheets as "The Iron Hills" and coincides with the outcrop of the Black Band Coal and Ironstone. This ironstone could as easily be utilised at bloomeries in the Wyke Beck Valley (by Foxwood Farm) or at Foundary Mill ......... but it clearly hints that this area of the Wyke Beck was an important producer of ironstone for the local iron industry!

[The Parksider]

grumpytramp wrote: Plots 519 [Pit Holes], 529 [Pit Holes] and 530 [Pit Hills] are all in areas where the Permian Lower Magnesium Limestone sits unconforably on Coal Measures in the vicinity of Seacroft. I had not appreciated until I had a look at the Solid Geology Sheet that this outlier was notable for being easily the most westerly outlier of the main Permian outcrops in West Yorkshire. The names must record workings in the limestone for the production of burnt lime for agricultural improvement (a happy coincidence limestone and adjacent wood and coal)Plot 326 [Grass Pit] occupies an area to the west of the junction of Foundary Lane and York Road and neatly coincides with workings in the outcrop of the Middleton MainPlot 420 [Blue Clay Close] occupies a portion of land which I think could be interpertated to be about the outcrop of the Better Bed Coal and of course its FireclayThen of course there is Plot 416 [Great Pit Close] well the name suggest much!It is more than a happy coincidence that it sits adjacent to the areas of woodlands shown on early OS sheets as "The Iron Hills" and coincides with the outcrop of the Black Band Coal and Ironstone. This ironstone could as easily be utilised at bloomeries in the Wyke Beck Valley (by Foxwood Farm) or at Foundary Mill ......... but it clearly hints that this area of the Wyke Beck was an important producer of ironstone for the local iron industry! Your excellent expert opinions are of great help as I start to pull all the notes and references together. A few questions arise that maybe you would comment on?1. The importance of Charcoal in the bloomery process runs for many years, at some point coal may have taken over but it seems the advent of the blast furnace was not that catalyst that led to a transfer to coal? What do you think was?2. Bloomeries didn't rely on water power early on so I suspect their sites would be close to the ore and charcoal - therefore Ironhills could be as much a smelting site as a mining site? Agree???3. Your outcrops where coal and ironstone could be dug seem to occur in the wykebeck valley - this was originally a bit more in the medieval hunting park than it is today, but even then Seacroft was a seperate entity, so I am fast believing that to state that iron mining took pace within Roundhay Park MAY be correct to a small degree, but Iron mining and smelting really was centered on seacroft.4. A Bloomery is a term for an early smelter. A Foundry is a "factory for moulding metal". So I am now confused as to wether the last "mill" - the foundry Mill - ever actually smelted ore??? I have some references to quality iron being imported into england long before the Foundry Mill was (I think) built, there came a point when ironstone stopped being mined for iron. Could that have been before the foundry??If it did smelt ore it would have been via a blast furnace - again did the Foundry Mill ever contain a blast furnace I wonder. Such a furnace would require an overshot waterwheel, but could that wheel have been inplace to power a different process?? I am not up on how "finished" iron products were produced in the late 1700's. I do some work at a brass foundry and they buy in the metal ingots and melt them down to mould into products. If the local ore was no longer used for Iron it could be logical to switch local skills into iron founding?????Comments OF COURSE invited from anyone else as I know there's some tremendous expertise on here!!!

[The Parksider]

grumpytramp wrote: It is more than a happy coincidence that it sits adjacent to the areas of woodlands shown on early OS sheets as "The Iron Hills" and coincides with the outcrop of the Black Band Coal and Ironstone. This ironstone could as easily be utilised at bloomeries in the Wyke Beck Valley (by Foxwood Farm) or at Foundary Mill ......... but it clearly hints that this area of the Wyke Beck was an important producer of ironstone for the local iron industry! 6. Did the industry ever need limestone from the locality as a flux -any thoughts?

[grumpytramp]

ParkieIt will always be very difficult to make any definitive conclusions here, much is educated supposition and opinion......... perhaps invite Channel 4's Time Team to investigate!Here is my stab at your questions The Parksider wrote: 1. The importance of Charcoal in the bloomery process runs for many years, at some point coal may have taken over but it seems the advent of the blast furnace was not that catalyst that led to a transfer to coal? What do you think was? As I understand the routine use of coal (or more specifically coke) in blast furnace did not occur until 1709 when Abraham Derby's introduced coke to his celebrated blast furnaces at Coalbrookdale. The efficiency and quality of the resulting iron ultimately led to the rapid replacement of charcoal with coke to feed the early industrial revolution (and neatly coincides with the attributed dated for the start of the foundary at Foundary Mill in 1725). It is also worth bearing in mind that medival bloomeries were almost certainily operating early primitive blast furnaces The Parksider wrote: 2. Bloomeries didn't rely on water power early on so I suspect their sites would be close to the ore and charcoal - therefore Ironhills could be as much a smelting site as a mining site? Agree??? Yes, except we do know as early as 1295/96 it is considered likely that a waterwheel was in operation [see above]. Is it possible that the Iron Hills were actually waste tips from the Ironstone Mining?The Iron contained in the Black Band Ironstone is nodular and cotained in layers of dark mudstone/shale. The easiest and most efficent non-mechanical means of recovering the nodules would be to tip and allow the shale to weather making the seperation of the shale from ironstone nodule relatively easy [typically shales when exposed to the air will absorb any water and swell losing much of their strength] The Parksider wrote: 3. Your outcrops where coal and ironstone could be dug seem to occur in the wykebeck valley - this was originally a bit more in the medieval hunting park than it is today, but even then Seacroft was a seperate entity, so I am fast believing that to state that iron mining took pace within Roundhay Park MAY be correct to a small degree, but Iron mining and smelting really was centered on seacroft. Agreed, except and I am really straying into pure supposition here, there are clearly two identifiable Black Band Ironstone mining areas here one centred about Boggart Hill and on the edge of the medieval Roundhay Park and the other about Iron Hills. It would seem entirely plausible that there may have been bloomeries in operation adjacent to the northern outcrops of the Black Band on Boggart Hill and related to the Ellers Close weir? The Parksider wrote: 4. A Bloomery is a term for an early smelter. A Foundry is a "factory for moulding metal". So I am now confused as to wether the last "mill" - the foundry Mill - ever actually smelted ore??? I have some references to quality iron being imported into england long before the Foundry Mill was (I think) built, there came a point when ironstone stopped being mined for iron. Could that have been before the foundry?? It is a confusing name but I believe Foundry Mill primary function was the production of iron, as perhaps illustrated by a relative contempary account that I posted earlier: 'Treatise on the Steam Engine' John Farey (Jr) 1827 wrote: A small Fire-engine and Blowing Machine for an Iron Furnace 1779This engine and machine performed very well. The author has a sketch which was taken by his father, who saw it at work in 1782 ; but the work was not successful, for owing to a bad quality in the coals and iron ore, they could never make good iron, until they procured coals from another district. The works were carried on for some years with coals brought from a distance of 100 miles, but the expense proved so great, that it was at length given up. There is no reason why Foundry work did not go here beyond the primary production of iron (after all there were significant local industry in the immediate locality - coal mines, iron mines and agriculture) otherwise I presume the raw product would have been hauled to the city for other foundries to utiliseCheersG