Post Office Robberies

[Middleton Sheriff]

Ian, That's the geezer, a big fat useless lump. Colin I mean.Dennis West was my DCI when I was DC at Chap. and saved my bacon at least once.It seemed that every nick I worked at was pretty soon replaced after I left, I worked at the old Millgarth, unfortunately on Ken Kitching's shift but a gent called Puddefoot was the inspector by then.I worked at Dewsbury Road, Henry I'anson was my sergeant and Supt. Timms grounded me from driving for not wearing my cap in the Vauxhall Viva, hence the nom de plume of Middleton Sheriff.I worked Chapeltown with Phil Sugden as the inspector.Ireland Wood on Jim Lazenby's shift and then Len Morley. CID at Chap. Hoss Hanson and then Dennis. Burglary squad with Ron Tyman and Mick Grubb. Robbery Squad with Pete Shearman a spell at DTS and then out to the sticks.I'm in my eleventh year of drawing the pension and I hope to draw it for as long as I paid in to it.Keep up the memoirs, I must commit my memories to paper or they will surely fade.

[stutterdog]

[quotenick="Middleton Sheriff"]Ian, That's the geezer, a big fat useless lump. Colin I mean.Dennis West was my DCI when I was DC at Chap. and saved my bacon at least once.It seemed that every nick I worked at was pretty soon replaced after I left, I worked at the old Millgarth, unfortunately on Ken Kitching's shift but a gent called Puddefoot was the inspector by then.I worked at Dewsbury Road, Henry I'anson was my sergeant and Supt. Timms grounded me from driving for not wearing my cap in the Vauxhall Viva, hence the nom de plume of Middleton Sheriff.I worked Chapeltown with Phil Sugden as the inspector.Ireland Wood on Jim Lazenby's shift and then Len Morley. CID at Chap. Hoss Hanson and then Dennis. Burglary squad with Ron Tyman and Mick Grubb. Robbery Squad with Pete Shearman a spell at DTS and then out to the sticks.I'm in my eleventh year of drawing the pension and I hope to draw it for as long as I paid in to it.Keep up the memoirs, I must commit my memories to paper or they will surely fade. [I once had to take my youngest son to Pudsey Nick for a rollocking.He had been chasesd from Studs Night club at Thornbury by some local nutters and pulled up somebody's garden fence palings to defend himself.The police came and saved his bacon but he was charged with criminal damage,but as it was his first offence he had to go in front of the Inspector -in- charge for a warning and I had to go with him. I nearly dropped through the floor when I saw who the Inspector was.Ian McLoud! I knew him from my days in the City of Leeds Pipe Band in the 60's! He said,I know you dont I and we chatted about the days in the band .My son was given his telling off and we left.Ian died not that long after I think.He did not look well then.Perhaps you lads knew him? Incidently, my son never reoffended so the warning did the trick.He joined the RAF not long after .

[iansmithofotley]

Middleton Sheriff wrote: Ian, That's the geezer, a big fat useless lump. Colin I mean.Dennis West was my DCI when I was DC at Chap. and saved my bacon at least once.It seemed that every nick I worked at was pretty soon replaced after I left, I worked at the old Millgarth, unfortunately on Ken Kitching's shift but a gent called Puddefoot was the inspector by then.I worked at Dewsbury Road, Henry I'anson was my sergeant and Supt. Timms grounded me from driving for not wearing my cap in the Vauxhall Viva, hence the nom de plume of Middleton Sheriff.I worked Chapeltown with Phil Sugden as the inspector.Ireland Wood on Jim Lazenby's shift and then Len Morley. CID at Chap. Hoss Hanson and then Dennis. Burglary squad with Ron Tyman and Mick Grubb. Robbery Squad with Pete Shearman a spell at DTS and then out to the sticks.I'm in my eleventh year of drawing the pension and I hope to draw it for as long as I paid in to it.Keep up the memoirs, I must commit my memories to paper or they will surely fade. Hi Middleton Sheriff, I knew all of the people who you mentioned. I never worked at Millgarth but knew of Kitching and the Olawale saga. I used to work with the other person involved, Geoff Ellerker, in CID at Ireland Wood when he was a D.S. and I was a young detective. Henry I'Anson was an absolute gentleman and one of the most enthusiastic people I ever worked with. He was the Sergeant Crime Prevention Officer when I was a D.S. at the old Dewsbury Road nick. ''Tiger' Timms was basically a Training department man and was out of his depth operationally as most of his time was in training and then he suddenly became an operational Divisional Superintendent when he got promoted.Philip Sugden made his name as a sergeant in Chapeltown Vice Squad (known as Plain Clothes Department in those days). He was good at telling the tale in a very authoritive way and people who did not know him thought that he was a Chief Constable of Chief Superintendent when, in fact, he was a sergeant. Eventually, he reached the rank of Superintendent before he retired.Puddefoot (I can't remember his first name) came in about 1966 when the Leeds City Police got an increase in establishment. Until then the collar numbers only went up to 799. With the increase in establishment, the numbers went over 800 so all of the new constables got 800 numbers, known as the '800 club'. Also, there needed to be more sergeants. Instead of promoting who was qualified, the Chief Constable, Paterson, worked a flanker by advertising vacancies to other forces. Because of a shortage of new recruits, Paterson recruited about twenty sergeants by promoting them from other forces. Again they were members of the '800 club' and went from about 819 to 840+. These numbers were also interspersed with new P.C.'s depending on the transfer dates.I worked with Jim Lazenby alot. He was on the same shift as me in the Information (Control) Room when I joined and served at Upper Wortley on a noddy bike. Jim had been a cadet and was a couple of years older than me. We worked together at Ireland Wood C.I.D. and then on the Leeds City Crime Squad. We both got promoted from there. It's strange, I knew him well and he was one of the most confident and self assured people that I had ever met. He always wanted to go into Detective Training at Bishopgarth but he struggled with the teaching courses that he was required to take to do the job. He ended up having a nervous breakdown and then committed suicide.Hoss (Geoff) Hanson was a character, I first knew him as a shift inspector at Dewsbury Road in 1965 and then later when we were both detectives. He was famous for getting his words wrong or saying funny things. Prior to 1974 (the amalgamation of forces), whenever there was a murder, in Leeds, detectives had to work 12 hour shifts and all leave was cancelled. There was also no overtime pay in those days. We usually worked from Brotherton House where an Incident Room would be set up. Hoss, as a D.I. or D.C.I. would often be tasked with briefings or debriefings. On one occasion somebody had made a mistake about something and told Hoss about it, infront of everyone. Hoss said "Don't worry about it, we're not all inflammable" (infallable). Everyone fell about laughing. On another occasion, we were working on a murder one Sunday and Hoss, being a considerate sort of bloke, said "You can all go home for your dinner - but don't make a meal out of it". Again everyone fell about laughing. Hoss also looked the part, he used to wear a Fedora type hat and a belted trenchcoat.Len Morley was one of the recruits who joined as a member of the '800 club' around 1966/67. I never worked with him but he was a nice bloke.Ron Tyman was another 'gentleman' and was from the West Riding. I only worked with him on murder enquiries. He was a smashing bloke.I worked with Mick Grubb at Ireland Wood in 1967/68. I was in C.I.D. and he was in Plain Clothes. I also worked with Mick in C.I.D. but never in the same Division. Mick is still around and is known affectionately as the 'Lord Mayor of Horsforth'.    Mick was a 'copper's copper' and was well liked everywhere. He devoted alot of his time, as a D.C.I. to catching John Speed's murderer (Griceworth/Tyreman - from memory).Pete Shearman was a D.C. at Rothwell when we amalgamated in 1974. Rothwell became part of Dewsbury Road Division, along with Morley. At the time, I was a D.S. at Dewsbury Road so I often saw him as there were no D.S.'s at Rothwell - just two D.C.'s.I knew Jock McLeod when he was a D.C. in the Scenes of Crimes Department (fingerprints and photographs). He got promoted and, I think, later went into Training. As far as I know, he was involved in the initial discovery of the Olawale affair and the start of the subsequent investigation.I was on the very first Burglary Squad around late 1974 or early 1975. There were ten D.S.'s and about 20 D.C.'s. As a D.S., it was the worst job I ever had to do. Ron Gregory, the Chief Constable had a thing about a Burglary Squad as he had been in another force where there was one. We operated from an old house at the side of Upper Wortley nick. There was a D.C.I. (Don Gledhill) and two D.I.'s (Wally Cowman and Paul Briggs) who supervised it. Divisions were instructed that all reports of burglary were to be initially attended by the Burglary Squad staff. It was an absolute joke, apart from attending proper house and industrial premises burglaries, we ended up going to break-ins at garden sheds, wooden huts, etc., as the divisions realised that if they recorded everything as 'burglary', the Burglary Squad would have to attend which freed up their own uniform staff. The rest of the time was spent on visiting convicted burglars in prison, all over the place, clearing up old crimes. I'd had enough after a couple of years and went back to Dewsbury Road C.I.D.Most of the people that you have mentioned are no longer with us.I apologise to the other Secret Leeds members who may not be interested in Police matters or are getting bored with my recent posts.Ian            

[Si]

I don't know if it was the same in Leeds, but police collar-numbers in Bradford would always start with a 5 for women officers. This identifying number was changed for all new female officers a few years back on PC grounds, so that now they are indistinguishable. This now means that unless an area controller knows a particular person's number, a pair of female officers is as likely to be sent to break up a pub brawl as a male pairing. At the risk of sounding sexist, if I had an all-out fight in my pub, I'd want coppers of the male persuasion to sort it out.

[Middleton Sheriff]

The old method of sorting out pub fights was to "give it a minute" and then arrest the survivors who were generally knackered by then.Now it matters not, male or female officers, you get gassed, side handled batons and solid bar cuffs.I remember Henry I'anson telling me that when he was in the army occupying Berlin shortly after the end of the war they regularly had to deal with riots and public disorder. The company Major said that "give me ten british bobbies and we'll have this sorted in no time".Geoffrey Hoss Hanson was a submariner in the war. Mr. Puddefoot joined Leeds City from the British Colonial Police having served in Rhodesia.In uniform I carried an old police truncheon, never used it on anybody, only ever used for putting windows in to get old ladies in their house or dogs out of hot cars.

[tyke bhoy]

iansmithofotley wrote: I apologise to the other Secret Leeds members who may not be interested in Police matters or are getting bored with my recent posts.Ian         Ian,I think I can speak for most in saying don't worry about it. Those that aren't interested don't have to read your posts or even the threads they are on and it is usually easy to identify those threads. I think though many of the regulars are interested in what is certainly on-topic for things most of us don't know about the recent history of Leeds.

[stutterdog]

iansmithofotley wrote: Middleton Sheriff wrote: Ian, That's the geezer, a big fat useless lump. Colin I mean.Dennis West was my DCI when I was DC at Chap. and saved my bacon at least once.It seemed that every nick I worked at was pretty soon replaced after I left, I worked at the old Millgarth, unfortunately on Ken Kitching's shift but a gent called Puddefoot was the inspector by then.I worked at Dewsbury Road, Henry I'anson was my sergeant and Supt. Timms grounded me from driving for not wearing my cap in the Vauxhall Viva, hence the nom de plume of Middleton Sheriff.I worked Chapeltown with Phil Sugden as the inspector.Ireland Wood on Jim Lazenby's shift and then Len Morley. CID at Chap. Hoss Hanson and then Dennis. Burglary squad with Ron Tyman and Mick Grubb. Robbery Squad with Pete Shearman a spell at DTS and then out to the sticks.I'm in my eleventh year of drawing the pension and I hope to draw it for as long as I paid in to it.Keep up the memoirs, I must commit my memories to paper or they will surely fade. Hi Middleton Sheriff, I knew all of the people who you mentioned. I never worked at Millgarth but knew of Kitching and the Olawale saga. I used to work with the other person involved, Geoff Ellerker, in CID at Ireland Wood when he was a D.S. and I was a young detective. Henry I'Anson was an absolute gentleman and one of the most enthusiastic people I ever worked with. He was the Sergeant Crime Prevention Officer when I was a D.S. at the old Dewsbury Road nick. ''Tiger' Timms was basically a Training department man and was out of his depth operationally as most of his time was in training and then he suddenly became an operational Divisional Superintendent when he got promoted.Philip Sugden made his name as a sergeant in Chapeltown Vice Squad (known as Plain Clothes Department in those days). He was good at telling the tale in a very authoritive way and people who did not know him thought that he was a Chief Constable of Chief Superintendent when, in fact, he was a sergeant. Eventually, he reached the rank of Superintendent before he retired.Puddefoot (I can't remember his first name) came in about 1966 when the Leeds City Police got an increase in establishment. Until then the collar numbers only went up to 799. With the increase in establishment, the numbers went over 800 so all of the new constables got 800 numbers, known as the '800 club'. Also, there needed to be more sergeants. Instead of promoting who was qualified, the Chief Constable, Paterson, worked a flanker by advertising vacancies to other forces. Because of a shortage of new recruits, Paterson recruited about twenty sergeants by promoting them from other forces. Again they were members of the '800 club' and went from about 819 to 840+. These numbers were also interspersed with new P.C.'s depending on the transfer dates.I worked with Jim Lazenby alot. He was on the same shift as me in the Information (Control) Room when I joined and served at Upper Wortley on a noddy bike. Jim had been a cadet and was a couple of years older than me. We worked together at Ireland Wood C.I.D. and then on the Leeds City Crime Squad. We both got promoted from there. It's strange, I knew him well and he was one of the most confident and self assured people that I had ever met. He always wanted to go into Detective Training at Bishopgarth but he struggled with the teaching courses that he was required to take to do the job. He ended up having a nervous breakdown and then committed suicide.Hoss (Geoff) Hanson was a character, I first knew him as a shift inspector at Dewsbury Road in 1965 and then later when we were both detectives. He was famous for getting his words wrong or saying funny things. Prior to 1974 (the amalgamation of forces), whenever there was a murder, in Leeds, detectives had to work 12 hour shifts and all leave was cancelled. There was also no overtime pay in those days. We usually worked from Brotherton House where an Incident Room would be set up. Hoss, as a D.I. or D.C.I. would often be tasked with briefings or debriefings. On one occasion somebody had made a mistake about something and told Hoss about it, infront of everyone. Hoss said "Don't worry about it, we're not all inflammable" (infallable). Everyone fell about laughing. On another occasion, we were working on a murder one Sunday and Hoss, being a considerate sort of bloke, said "You can all go home for your dinner - but don't make a meal out of it". Again everyone fell about laughing. Hoss also looked the part, he used to wear a Fedora type hat and a belted trenchcoat.Len Morley was one of the recruits who joined as a member of the '800 club' around 1966/67. I never worked with him but he was a nice bloke.Ron Tyman was another 'gentleman' and was from the West Riding. I only worked with him on murder enquiries. He was a smashing bloke.I worked with Mick Grubb at Ireland Wood in 1967/68. I was in C.I.D. and he was in Plain Clothes. I also worked with Mick in C.I.D. but never in the same Division. Mick is still around and is known affectionately as the 'Lord Mayor of Horsforth'.    Mick was a 'copper's copper' and was well liked everywhere. He devoted alot of his time, as a D.C.I. to catching John Speed's murder (Tyreman - from memory).Pete Shearman was a D.C. at Rothwell when we amalgamated in 1974. Rothwell became part of Dewsbury Road Division, along with Morley. At the time, I was a D.S. at Dewsbury Road so I often saw him as there were no D.S.'s at Rothwell - just two D.C.'s.I knew Jock McLeod when he was a D.C. in the Scenes of Crimes Department (fingerprints and photographs). He got promoted and, I think, later went into Training. As far as I know, he was involved in the initial discovery of the Olawale affair and the start of the subsequent investigation.I was on the very first Burglary Squad around late 1974 or early 1975. There were ten D.S.'s and about 20 D.C.'s. As a D.S., it was the worst job I ever had to do. Ron Gregory, the Chief Constable had a thing about a Burglary Squad as he had been in another force where there was one. We operated from an old house at the side of Upper Wortley nick. There was a D.C.I. (Don Gledhill) and two D.I.'s (Wally Cowman and Paul Briggs) who supervised it. Divisions were instructed that all reports of burglary were to be initially attended by the Burglary Squad staff. It was an absolute joke, apart from attending proper house and industrial premises burglaries, we ended up going to break-ins at garden sheds, wooden huts, etc., as the divisions realised that if they recorded everything as 'burglary', the Burglary Squad would have to attend which freed up their own uniform staff. The rest of the time was spent on visiting convicted burglars in prison, all over the place, clearing up old crimes. I'd had enough after a couple of years and went back to Dewsbury Road C.I.D.Most of the people that you have mentioned are no longer with us.I apologise to the other Secret Leeds members who may not be interested in Police matters or are getting bored with my recent posts.Ian         I for one have found your reminscences facinting.Keep 'em coming! They can get out of hand and clog an existing threads - still make interesting reading for many though - as is suggested elsewhere, why not just start a new general chat thread fo it - that allows anyone not interested to easily bypass chameleon

[iansmithofotley]

Si wrote: I don't know if it was the same in Leeds, but police collar-numbers in Bradford would always start with a 5 for women officers. This identifying number was changed for all new female officers a few years back on PC grounds, so that now they are indistinguishable. This now means that unless an area controller knows a particular person's number, a pair of female officers is as likely to be sent to break up a pub brawl as a male pairing. At the risk of sounding sexist, if I had an all-out fight in my pub, I'd want coppers of the male persuasion to sort it out. Hi Si,Prior to 1974, the male collar numbers in Leeds started at 1 - 1046. The policewomen were known as 'policewomen', or 'WPC's, or 'PW's' - they had their own numbers from 1 to 99. When calling on the radio or being discussed as manpower or on parades, the men were just called by their number, e,g, I was 681. The women were called WPC/PW 20 or whatever in order to distinguish them from the men.In the 1974 amalgamation, the West Yorkshire Metropolitan Police was formed. The collar numbers were reconsidered because each former force started at 1 for men and 1 for women. We were lucky in Leeds because we kept our own numbers. In the provincial forces, we all kept our collar numbers until such time as we were promoted to the rank of inspector - then we lost it and it was reissued to a new recruit.In Bradford area, a 3 was placed before all of the Bradford collar numbers. I am not sure but I think that the former West Yorkshire staff had their numbers reissued so they took up any spaces that were available or a new number beginning with a 4.So far as relates to the Policewomen, the numbers were reissued and all began with a 5, but the Leeds staff still kept their numbers, just placing a 5 infront. All the women had four figure numbers starting with 5 and using 0's where necessary.Due to the usual sex discrimination, equal opportunities, other political correctness and feminism issues, in the 1980/90's, the force decided to do away any 'discrimination' so the women could get any number depending on when they joined and the numbers available. Some of the women (and some men) even complained if female staff were referred to as a policewoman, WPC or PW, it was pathetic.Operationally, it was a pain in the backside because unless you knew the staff, personally, you did not know whether it was a man or a woman you were dealing with or allocating duties to. It wasn't too bad in your own division as you knew who was who, but if you were policing a major event such as a demonstration, pop concert, sporting event, etc., and staff were brought in from all over the force area, it caused problems. Personally, I wanted to know that I wasn't allocating tasks to women that I thought men should be doing, and vice versa. Obviously, in most cases it did not matter but I knew who I would sooner have watching my back if there was a large public disorder problem.In the Metropolitan Police, the staff also had 'Warrant Numbers' but I have no idea just what these were. I suspect that they were just a unique number which an officer always kept, irrespective of rank. I don't think that they matched up with the collar numbers as the collar numbers had the divisional letter plus a number. I have no idea what happened if they moved divisions, they were probably issued with a new collar number.My number, 681, was allocated in the 1930/40's to a well known PC in Leeds called Nobby Clarke. He was the man who directed traffic in City Square for many, many years. You could always tell when he was on duty as the traffic was free flowing. If he wasn't on duty, and someone else was doing the job, then you got traffic jams. I got the number in 1965 and kept it until 1988 when I became an inspector.Ian.

[Middleton Sheriff]

Ian,If you recall when I was recruited in to Leeds City Police, the recruiting sergeant was Smokey Hawksworth and he dished out the numbers. My grandad had been a PC in South Leeds and traditionally all that division had nembers in the four hundreds, my grandad had been PC 440 but Nev Spence had that number, so I got 401.Mind you Smokey did have a sense of humour, remember PC 4 Gott, he had his number changed to 511 as soon as he could.Here's a measure of the calibre of officer in those days. In the early eighties I got to know a lovely old bloke called George Taylor, he had been the head of Leeds Education in the sixties, ex head of Cockburn High. Anyway he told me that he had been asked by the then Deputy Chief Constable, Austin Heywood, to set some questions to make up the police entrance exam for Leeds City. If a recruit had less than 5 O levels indluding english and maths then they had to pass the entrance exam. George set the exam paper and away Austin went.Some weeks later Austin was back, "George" he said, "can you make the exam a little easier, not many men are able to pass it.""Well I can" said George, " but all I'm using are old eleven plus papers".!!!!Anyway I passed.!!

[Si]

iansmithofotley wrote: Si wrote: I don't know if it was the same in Leeds, but police collar-numbers in Bradford would always start with a 5 for women officers. This identifying number was changed for all new female officers a few years back on PC grounds, so that now they are indistinguishable. This now means that unless an area controller knows a particular person's number, a pair of female officers is as likely to be sent to break up a pub brawl as a male pairing. At the risk of sounding sexist, if I had an all-out fight in my pub, I'd want coppers of the male persuasion to sort it out. Hi Si,Prior to 1974, the male collar numbers in Leeds started at 1 - 1046. The policewomen were known as 'policewomen', or 'WPC's, or 'PW's' - they had their own numbers from 1 to 99. When calling on the radio or being discussed as manpower or on parades, the men were just called by their number, e,g, I was 681. The women were called WPC/PW 20 or whatever in order to distinguish them from the men.In the 1974 amalgamation, the West Yorkshire Metropolitan Police was formed. The collar numbers were reconsidered because each former force started at 1 for men and 1 for women. We were lucky in Leeds because we kept our own numbers. In the provincial forces, we all kept our collar numbers until such time as we were promoted to the rank of inspector - then we lost it and it was reissued to a new recruit.In Bradford area, a 3 was placed before all of the Bradford collar numbers. I am not sure but I think that the former West Yorkshire staff had their numbers reissued so they took up any spaces that were available or a new number beginning with a 4.So far as relates to the Policewomen, the numbers were reissued and all began with a 5, but the Leeds staff still kept their numbers, just placing a 5 infront. All the women had four figure numbers starting with 5 and using 0's where necessary.Due to the usual sex discrimination, equal opportunities, other political correctness and feminism issues, in the 1980/90's, the force decided to do away any 'discrimination' so the women could get any number depending on when they joined and the numbers available. Some of the women (and some men) even complained if female staff were referred to as a policewoman, WPC or PW, it was pathetic.Operationally, it was a pain in the backside because unless you knew the staff, personally, you did not know whether it was a man or a woman you were dealing with or allocating duties to. It wasn't too bad in your own division as you knew who was who, but if you were policing a major event such as a demonstration, pop concert, sporting event, etc., and staff were brought in from all over the force area, it caused problems. Personally, I wanted to know that I wasn't allocating tasks to women that I thought men should be doing, and vice versa. Obviously, in most cases it did not matter but I knew who I would sooner have watching my back if there was a large public disorder problem.In the Metropolitan Police, the staff also had 'Warrant Numbers' but I have no idea just what these were. I suspect that they were just a unique number which an officer always kept, irrespective of rank. I don't think that they matched up with the collar numbers as the collar numbers had the divisional letter plus a number. I have no idea what happened if they moved divisions, they were probably issued with a new collar number.My number, 681, was allocated in the 1930/40's to a well known PC in Leeds called Nobby Clarke. He was the man who directed traffic in City Square for many, many years. You could always tell when he was on duty as the traffic was free flowing. If he wasn't on duty, and someone else was doing the job, then you got traffic jams. I got the number in 1965 and kept it until 1988 when I became an inspector.Ian. Thanks for the info, Ian. I don't know what the world's coming to when calling a (police)woman a (police)woman is being discriminatory, never mind the issue of collar numbers!BTW, I've remembered the new name for the Domestic Violence/Vulnerable Victim Unit. It's the "Safeguarding" department! Call a spade a manual excavation implement, that's what I say!