Kirkstall family

[barlickgirl]

Hi there,I'm hoping that this is the correct forum for help with my Austin family who came from Kirstall.My Gt Grandmother, Mary Ann Austin was the illegitimate daughter of Hannah Austin, daughter of George Austin and Mary Wilson. It took me 2 years to find her in the records and censuses because I was searching for her as though her Father was named Austin. Hannah also had an illegitimate son, John Edward Austin, 10 years older than Mary Ann. I'm very curious to know who their Father/s was, no one else in the family knows anything and I have very little to go on, but:Benjamin Austin, Hannah's Grandfather had 2 children who the parish records state were born in JE Brook Mill in Kirkstall. A google of this JE Brook was probably the tenant of what is St Ann's Mill today. There may be some connection with the Brook and Austin families as both Hannah and her niece Mary Emma Lunn had boys named John Edward, the name appears elsewhere in my family tree in this family as well.Does anyone know if there is a book outlining the Brook's family history please, or any folklore about John Edward. I'm wondering whether this link could give me insights into my Gt Grandmother's paternity.Kind regards,Barlickgirl

[dogduke]

There are a few local history/family tree wizardson this site whomight be able to help.Some dates would be useful.I think there is a strong localhistory group in Kirkstall,will havea look round and let you know.

[barlickgirl]

dogduke wrote: There are a few local history/family tree wizardson this site whomight be able to help.Some dates would be useful.I think there is a strong localhistory group in Kirkstall,will havea look round and let you know. Thanks for that dogduke.in terms of dates:Hannah Austin was born in 1830 in Kirkstall. Her son John Edward was born in 1851 followed by my Gt Grandma Mary Ann in 1861. Mary Ann's birth certificate shows a blank space where the Father's name should be, as does John Edward's. Mother is shown as Hannah Austin. Hannah's Father was George Austin, born abt 1804 and her Grandparents were Benjamin Austin b.1781 and Sarah Furbank.Hannah Austin married Luke Moule in 1869 and she died about a year later. Mary Ann went to live with her Aunt Sarah Lunn, nee Austin. In the 1861 census, Hannah is living at home with George and Mary. Her occupation shows as "formerly servant". I keep wondering if this could be the clue to who Mary Ann's Father might be!

[Brandy]

Hi barlickgirl , welcome im not really up on the family History side of things but my mate on here CNOSNI is red hot on the subject.If he cannot help you trace people nobody can lol.He will probably be on tomorrow so just keep checking on back here.

[cnosni]

barlickgirl wrote: Hi there,I'm hoping that this is the correct forum for help with my Austin family who came from Kirstall.My Gt Grandmother, Mary Ann Austin was the illegitimate daughter of Hannah Austin, daughter of George Austin and Mary Wilson. It took me 2 years to find her in the records and censuses because I was searching for her as though her Father was named Austin. Hannah also had an illegitimate son, John Edward Austin, 10 years older than Mary Ann. I'm very curious to know who their Father/s was, no one else in the family knows anything and I have very little to go on, but:Benjamin Austin, Hannah's Grandfather had 2 children who the parish records state were born in JE Brook Mill in Kirkstall. A google of this JE Brook was probably the tenant of what is St Ann's Mill today. There may be some connection with the Brook and Austin families as both Hannah and her niece Mary Emma Lunn had boys named John Edward, the name appears elsewhere in my family tree in this family as well.Does anyone know if there is a book outlining the Brook's family history please, or any folklore about John Edward. I'm wondering whether this link could give me insights into my Gt Grandmother's paternity.Kind regards,Barlickgirl Hate to be the barer of bad news but unless the father of the children was named in the church register at the childrens baptism then you wont find out the identity of the father.It does happen on occasion where the father is named in the entry, as ort of name and shame if you like,but this tends to happen(though not exclusiveley) in the smaller parishes or where there is a chapel of convenience in a small settlement for the larger parish church ,eg Horsforth and Rawdon chapels which were part of the parish of Guiseley.This naming of the father pretty much comes to an abrupt end in 1812 when a standard form book was introduced for births deaths and marriages,though im sure that there may be still examples (that i havent yet come across) of this naming and shaming as there is enough room.This standard form book takes away the parish clerks freedom to put a little bit of extra info into the register that sometimes give tantalising clues and insights into our ancestors relationships and day to day life.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parish_registerthis link explains the changes,scroll down to the section DAde and Barrington and read the following passage.So it would be an idea to see where they may have been baptised,look at what churches were in the are at that time,and dont discount Horsforth as there are a good number of Kirkstall residents popping up there,also bare in mind they could be non conformist at some particular time,Bramley Wesleyan is another option.

[barlickgirl]

hi cnosni, Yes I am realistic about ever finding Mary Ann's Father, but everytime I look at the gap in my tree where her Father should be, I get renewed energy to find out who he is!Hannah didn't marry until she was nearly 40. She was a servant up to the time she had Mary Ann. How many houses would have required servants in Krikstall in those days, I wonder. It interests me that she has 2 illegitimate children 10 years apart and I wonder whether they could both be with the same Father and for some reason (probably already married) she couldn't marry him. Was this why she had to leave her employment?The link to Mr Brook's Factory where George's Brother jeremiah and one of his sisters were born is interesting and I think that these 2 were Christened at Zion Baptist Church Bramley (can check when I get home from work). I don't think the timeline works for Mary Ann and John Edward to be the children of Mr John Edward Brook, but I'm wondering about a younger son perhaps!Research makes me think that Hannah was a "bit of a goer". She married Luke Moule (9 years her junior) and the Cambridge Parish Cleric had a few choice things to say about Luke and his brother in the records. Hannah's death certificate gives the cause of her death as "Hepotic dropsy and Coma". I'm told that this could have been alcohol related.Next time I'm in England I'll make a concerted effort to get to Kirkstall and see what I can find. I've been researching the family history for 3 years now and it's long enough to get a strong sense that there's some story to be found here!!!Thanks for all your help.

[cnosni]

barlickgirl wrote: hi cnosni, Yes I am realistic about ever finding Mary Ann's Father, but everytime I look at the gap in my tree where her Father should be, I get renewed energy to find out who he is!Hannah didn't marry until she was nearly 40. She was a servant up to the time she had Mary Ann. How many houses would have required servants in Krikstall in those days, I wonder. It interests me that she has 2 illegitimate children 10 years apart and I wonder whether they could both be with the same Father and for some reason (probably already married) she couldn't marry him. Was this why she had to leave her employment?The link to Mr Brook's Factory where George's Brother jeremiah and one of his sisters were born is interesting and I think that these 2 were Christened at Zion Baptist Church Bramley (can check when I get home from work). I don't think the timeline works for Mary Ann and John Edward to be the children of Mr John Edward Brook, but I'm wondering about a younger son perhaps!Research makes me think that Hannah was a "bit of a goer". She married Luke Moule (9 years her junior) and the Cambridge Parish Cleric had a few choice things to say about Luke and his brother in the records. Hannah's death certificate gives the cause of her death as "Hepotic dropsy and Coma". I'm told that this could have been alcohol related.Next time I'm in England I'll make a concerted effort to get to Kirkstall and see what I can find. I've been researching the family history for 3 years now and it's long enough to get a strong sense that there's some story to be found here!!!Thanks for all your help. Its a pleasure to help.Interstingly it was common for even those further down the social ladder to have servants.I have no more higher status of person in my tree other than Yeomen in the 17th and 18th centuries,they undoubtedly had servants on their farms etc.However even those people with the smallest of businesse had what would be descibed as a servant.The term applied not only to those in a household capacity such as cooks ,cleaners and servants but basically to anyone that worked for them.I even have examples of people in my tree who have nieces and nephews in the household working for them,and described in the census as servant.So we shouldnt have too narrow an outlook to the term.I do think the John Edward Brook angle could be intersting as their are instances of illegitimate children being given the forenames of the father,and in some cases the fathers surname as a middle name.I have both examples in parts of my tree Was John Edward Brook married,and if so did he have children and how old was his wife?

[Steve Jones]

actually for once csosni might be wrong<LOL..One way of finding out if there is a name for the father would be to see if there was ever a bastardy order/this is an order aplied for by the parish hse lied in to get her to name the supposed father.if a name was given that person was told to pay an amount to the mother,that way the parish avoided paying out of their own funds (think of an ealrlier more eficient Child Support Agency!).Just a thought as we know the name of one of my Devon ancesters only because the parish applied for a Bastardy order.

[barlickgirl]

Hi csosni,That broader definition of servant puts a different perspective on things. I'm in Australia and only have access to what I can find on Google, but it does seem that John Edward Brook was a respectable married man. This is about all I've been able to find about the Factory.http://www.kirkstallward.net/history/index.htmthanks for your input,Jill

[barlickgirl]

Steve Jones wrote: actually for once csosni might be wrong<LOL..One way of finding out if there is a name for the father would be to see if there was ever a bastardy order/this is an order aplied for by the parish hse lied in to get her to name the supposed father.if a name was given that person was told to pay an amount to the mother,that way the parish avoided paying out of their own funds (think of an ealrlier more eficient Child Support Agency!).Just a thought as we know the name of one of my Devon ancesters only because the parish applied for a Bastardy order. That's a good idea Steve. Do you know how I can get access to those records? Are they online or would I have to visit the local family history centre in Kirkstall? regards,Jill