SecretLeeds - History, culture and architecture in Leeds

Could someone explain why Otley had so many pubs? I can remember years ago, you could walk round the place and there was even pubs next door to each other! I wouldn't have thought even in the 50's that a place the size of Otley could support so may pubs? Having said that, when I think about my Dad, who was born there and the amount he could put aside it does not surprise me! LOLPS Did Otley ever hold the title of the Town with Most Pubs?

Hi Stutterdog. This is my understanding:Otley supported so many pubs because historically it was the livestock market for much of Wharfedale. On market days, the pubs (which had a special longer hours licence) would be full of farmers from all over the region, doing deals. A couple of the pubs (including the Red Lion, which is next door to Whitaker's, another pub) still have signs on them outlining the terms of the licence.I've heard that at one time, when there were even more pubs (30+) Otley did have more pubs per capita than anywhere else, but I don't have any evidence. Quite a few have closed since I've lived in Otley.I used to live in Pudsey, and there were quite a lot of pubs there, too.        

Si wrote: Hi Stutterdog. This is my understanding:Otley supported so many pubs because historically it was the livestock market for much of Wharfedale. On market days, the pubs (which had a special longer hours licence) would be full of farmers from all over the region, doing deals. A couple of the pubs (including the Red Lion, which is next door to Whitaker's, another pub) still have signs on them outlining the terms of the licence.I've heard that at one time, when there were even more pubs (30+) Otley did have more pubs per capita than anywhere else, but I don't have any evidence. Quite a few have closed since I've lived in Otley.I used to live in Pudsey, and there were quite a lot of pubs there, too.         Ah yes! I'd forgotten about the Mart there. I have heard the same said of Otley that it had more pubs per head of population too. Not sure now though with all the ones thats gone! Thanks Si.

Hi Si,When the pubs had strict 'permitted hours', the only way that they could lawfully stay open outside of those hours (for example 11.00 until 15.00 and 17.30 until 23.00, which was the general position until all of the law changes over the past fifteen years or so) was to have a 'General Order of Exemption' which they had to apply for each year. In Otley, for the general market days and the cattle markets, each pub could apply for this exemption but only a few did. I seem to remember that the order applied in Otley on Mondays, Fridays and Saturdays - it will tell you on the plaques which still remain.The General Order of Exemption named the extended hours (opening times).This facility was also used in connection with other trades which worked 'unsocial hours'. An example would be at Billingsgate Fish Market and also the Flowers Markets (Covent Garden?) in London, when the pubs might open at 6am so that workers and traders could get a drink.The same thing used to apply in places like Sheffield for the steel and foundry workers who worked night shifts. Other trades might include dockers in places such as Liverpool or the fishing industry in Hull or Grimsby.This type of exemption was different to a 'Special Order of Exemption' which was the one which pubs and restaurants applied for, on an individual basis, for such things as functions like a wedding reception or a dinner dance or at Christmas and New Year's Eve. The licensees used to have to apply to the licensing magistrates and appear in person to apply for the 'extension' which may or may not have been granted. Some applications were refused if there were too many. They were granted for a 'special occasion', as described. In those days, the only other solution, to stay open late, was to obtain a 'Special Hours Certificate' or 'Supper Hour Extension" which I won't bore you with as they were complicated. Registered Clubs had different laws, rules and regulations in connection with licensing hours which is why people used to leave the pub at 3pm and go to a club (Working Mens, Conservative, Labour, Constitutional, etc.) until 5.30pm when the pubs opened again.Ian    

When I was a conductor at Samuel Ledgard's starting in 1957 the lunchtimes on Monday and Friday cattle market days allowed drinking until 5.00pm.     We used to dread certain journeys when you could have a full load all very well oiled, and many of them extremely troublesome. Among the worst trips were the 5.10pm and 5.30pm to Leeds and the 5.10pm to Ilkley. West Yorkshire suffered likewise with the 4.30pm and 5.30pm to Skipton. One very elderly and huge fellow, who was a dry stone waller of high skill and repute, would travel to Addingham on the West Yorkshire. When I later worked for WY I once took over the 4.30 from Otley to Skipton at 4.50pm in Ilkley. The conductor coming off, the mildest and most humble Scottish chap you could hope to meet, was practically rigid with fear and white as a sheet - and managed to whisper that "*** **********" is upstairs and he's going to biff somebody and won't pay. I said thank you, and off we went - well, the noted stonewaller was on the back seat upstairs and you would have had to hear the threats and the abominable language to believe it !! Those were the days eh and not a two way radio to be seen     

BLAKEY wrote: When I was a conductor at Samuel Ledgard's starting in 1957 the lunchtimes on Monday and Friday cattle market days allowed drinking until 5.00pm.     We used to dread certain journeys when you could have a full load all very well oiled, and many of them extremely troublesome. Among the worst trips were the 5.10pm and 5.30pm to Leeds and the 5.10pm to Ilkley. West Yorkshire suffered likewise with the 4.30pm and 5.30pm to Skipton. One very elderly and huge fellow, who was a dry stone waller of high skill and repute, would travel to Addingham on the West Yorkshire. When I later worked for WY I once took over the 4.30 from Otley to Skipton at 4.50pm in Ilkley. The conductor coming off, the mildest and most humble Scottish chap you could hope to meet, was practically rigid with fear and white as a sheet - and managed to whisper that "*** **********" is upstairs and he's going to biff somebody and won't pay. I said thank you, and off we went - well, the noted stonewaller was on the back seat upstairs and you would have had to hear the threats and the abominable language to believe it !! Those were the days eh and not a two way radio to be seen      Well, Blakey! what happened next? Did you get his fare or did you, as I would have done, ignore him and live to take fares another day!

stutterdog wrote: BLAKEY wrote: One very elderly and huge fellow, who was a dry stone waller of high skill and repute, would travel to Addingham on the West Yorkshire. When I later worked for WY I once took over the 4.30 from Otley to Skipton at 4.50pm in Ilkley. The conductor coming off, the mildest and most humble Scottish chap you could hope to meet, was practically rigid with fear and white as a sheet - and managed to whisper that "*** **********" is upstairs and he's going to biff somebody and won't pay. I said thank you, and off we went - well, the noted stonewaller was on the back seat upstairs and you would have had to hear the threats and the abominable language to believe it !! Those were the days eh and not a two way radio to be seen      Well, Blakey! what happened next? Did you get his fare or did you, as I would have done, ignore him and live to take fares another day! No stutterdog I didn't get his fare, and I'm sure my poor terrified mate Hughie certainly hadn't on the way from Otley - in fact its doubtful if half a dozen hefty lads from New Scotland Yard would have had any luck either. The only hope would have been the Ilkley Depot Inspector, Mr. Dodsworth, who was a quiet, immaculate perfect gentleman and very dogged too - he NEVER gave up on anything but was srupulously fair to all.