Tram 180 at Crich......Or is it?

Railways, trams, buses, etc.
MiggyBill
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Joined: Fri 11 Mar, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: Tram 180 at Crich......Or is it?

Post by MiggyBill »

I agree that the scrapyard photo is a little strange, I can only think that there might have been a strong wind, right to left which has left this end virtually untouched as far as can be made out in the photo. The panel looks firmly and properly attached for it to have been added after the burning.

I don't believe this photo has been altered in any way.

What conclusions, if any , can we draw from this pic?

This front panel could be
1. The original panel taken off 180 and reattached to the wreck of 189....or
2. The panel of 189 which has had the number repainted to 180 before scrapping......or
3. This wreck could actually be 180!

Can you come up with any other possible explanations as each of the above points raises further questions, what do you think?

I'd love to get to the bottom of this.
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TABBYCAT
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Re: Tram 180 at Crich......Or is it?

Post by TABBYCAT »

Having viewed this on a very good HD monitor with a PC that has an equally good graphics processor, at a 300% zoom I can make out blistering around the light nacelle ( and no it's not the pixelation present as a by-product at these zoom levels before anyone points it out) , I can see it also under the superimposed lettering and darkened patches on the front face around the nacelle which would indicate some kind of heat if not fire damage i would have thought.

MiggyBill
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Re: Tram 180 at Crich......Or is it?

Post by MiggyBill »

Here's another couple of pics of 180 or 180 and 189 or both or not as the case may be
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Leeds-180bbcv.jpg
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MiggyBill
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Re: Tram 180 at Crich......Or is it?

Post by MiggyBill »

Looking at the state of the end panel on 180 in the last pic I think the most likely explanation is that the end panels on 189 were in better condition so were swapped over when refurbing 180, that is probably why they "renumbered" to 189. It may not have been too difficult to swap over, half a dozen bolts and disconnect the light, if it was a simple procedure it could explain why they reattached 180s panel or panels to the wreck of 189. Also for book keeping / spares etc they would still have a tram, although unusable, with a unique number.
If that is the case it would be nice if Crich could add that not only were the trucks used to recommission 180 but the end panels, or at least one, came off 189.

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uncle mick
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Re: Tram 180 at Crich......Or is it?

Post by uncle mick »

MiggyBill wrote:
Sat 04 Apr, 2020 6:55 pm
Looking at the state of the end panel on 180 in the last pic I think the most likely explanation is that the end panels on 189 were in better condition so were swapped over when refurbing 180, that is probably why they "renumbered" to 189. It may not have been too difficult to swap over, half a dozen bolts and disconnect the light, if it was a simple procedure it could explain why they reattached 180s panel or panels to the wreck of 189. Also for book keeping / spares etc they would still have a tram, although unusable, with a unique number.
If that is the case it would be nice if Crich could add that not only were the trucks used to recommission 180 but the end panels, or at least one, came off 189.
You could contact them to see if they could help

https://www.tramway.co.uk/contact/contact-us/

fredbear01
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Re: Tram 180 at Crich......Or is it?

Post by fredbear01 »

uncle mick wrote:
Fri 03 Apr, 2020 11:41 am
Message received from The Tramway Village on FB which I've copied & pasted

Withdrawn from service
Initially withdrawn in November 1957 with a view to using it for spares, but refurbished and re-instated.on the truck belonging to 189 after the latter was seriously damaged in a collision. Renumbered as 189 at this time.

Subsequent history
Took part in the last tram procession on 7th November 1959 and saved for preservation, moving to Crich, where it had its original number restored, in February 1960.

Full Text here https://tinyurl.com/tc6uv4e
I cannot see that the response answers the question of what tram with the number 180 was photographed. If there already was a scrap 189, then a renumbered 180, there should not be a tram with 180 on should there? Unless the front panels were swapped and the photo is of the scrap 189 with the 180 front on? If that was the case surely Crich would know about it.
Regards, Fred.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/fred_bear/

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warringtonrhino
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Re: Tram 180 at Crich......Or is it?

Post by warringtonrhino »

why don't you ask Crich?

fredbear01
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Re: Tram 180 at Crich......Or is it?

Post by fredbear01 »

warringtonrhino wrote:
Sat 11 Apr, 2020 10:57 am
why don't you ask Crich?
I believe 'Uncle Mick' did ask and included their reply in his post. I will ask Crich purely about the possibility of the end panel being changed.
Regards, Fred.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/fred_bear/

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warringtonrhino
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Re: Tram 180 at Crich......Or is it?

Post by warringtonrhino »

A relatively unusual design feature is that in this particular class of trams the body simply rests on the truck instead of being bolted to it in the normal fashion for four wheel tramcars. This had the advantage of facilitating relatively quick and easy truck replacements, a factor which may have helped to secure 180’s survival into preservation towards the end of its working life.
Many of the Horsfields remained in service until the system closed in 1959, though 180 itself was withdrawn for a time in 1957 in order to provide a source of spares. Shortly afterwards, however, a sister car – number 189 – was written off in a collision and this resulted in 180 being returned to service, albeit using 189’s truck and inheriting its number. Fortunately, the Horsfield design meant that this was a relatively straightforward and easy procedure. In this guise it, too, continued in service until the system was closed, and even took part in the final closing procession.

After it was selected for preservation and moved to Crich, in February 1960, it reverted to its original number, partly for reasons of authenticity, but also to differentiate it from Sheffield’s 189, though the subsequent arrival of another 180 from Prague thwarted this endeavour to maintain its distinctive and unique identity.

Following its arrival at Crich, it took eight years for the volunteer workforce to prepare the car for operational duties. So, Leeds 180 first entered service at Crich in August 1969 and, after running intermittently during the next two decades, was re-launched in August 1989 following a major programme of work.

MiggyBill
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Joined: Fri 11 Mar, 2016 6:00 pm

Re: Tram 180 at Crich......Or is it?

Post by MiggyBill »

I think the phrase "inherited its number", as quoted in the above information by Warringtonrhino, and the phrases "renumbered" in other sources of information regarding 180/189 are the phrases open to conflicting interpretations.
Could it mean the old number erased/painted over? or the panel with the number already on it being replaced?
We could even ask "is it all that important?" Well, at this strange time when we haven't got much else to do it may distract us to ponder for a couple of minutes, what do you think?

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