SecretLeeds - History, culture and architecture in Leeds

This strange forgotten tramway under the arches has really got me interested now, and it is almost certainly a tramway because when you enlarge the map on the Network rail site there are several section lines drawn through it and the sections are reproduced in the lower left hand corner of the map. Lets go from what appears to be the pointwork in this mini rail system and head westwards.First cross section is taken at the point where it comes out of the wall and heads out over the river, the sectional drawing shows a skew arch through the wall, consistant with the direction the line is heading ( labelled section G - H )The next section ( E - F ) shows a simple, plain arch through a wall but looking at the map this is obviously running at an angle to both the river and the walls of the arches - the arch in Phills photo possibly ?The next section ( labelled C - D ) again shows a plain arch but it is half way out from under the station construction with the retaining wall built out to accomodate the arch and the track running through it.The next section ( A - B ) is taken at the middle of three dividing walls in the river, outside of the arches in the open air and shows, including an additional sectional drawing of the girders, this track running over a bridge on abutments that are effectivly an extension of the walls of the arches. Now, just to throw another thought into the thread - follow this tramway in the other direction towards Neville Street and for all intents and purposes it appears it ends against a wall seperating the arches from Neville Street but let your eye continu across Neville Street and into the third of the four arches down on the other side of Neville Street. Could that have been a continuation of this mystery tramway - it certainly looks to be the same scale and run s in perfect line with the subject of this thread.OK - so what was it, why was it there and where did it go ? Well this is a total guess from me but - could it have been a short tramway to serve the mill with coal and raw materials brought in by train and also for removing finished product for storage and shipment by rail ?Phill - I have no idea how it could be done but I guess the thing to look for would be where the tramway ran on abutments outside the boundery wall of the station above, it might just be the case that the later extension in this location was built on top of these abutments so in effect the base would be stone with brick arches on top - at least for a little way anyway.Hope all the above makes sense guys.

And I haven't even started to try and work out what the 1 in 11 slope was shown in the seperate sectional drawing on this map but the interesting thing is it shows it running down inclined arches to the west of the river - HmmmOh - and any confirmation on what appears to be a swing bridge over the link from the canal to the Aire ?

BIG N wrote: And I haven't even started to try and work out what the 1 in 11 slope was that is shown in the seperate sectional drawing on this map but the interesting thing is it shows it running down inclined arches to the west of the river - HmmmOh - and any confirmation on what appears to be a swing bridge over the link from the canal to the Aire ?

BIG N wrote: Phill - I have no idea how it could be done but I guess the thing to look for would be where the tramway ran on abutments outside the boundery wall of the station above, it might just be the case that the later extension in this location was built on top of these abutments so in effect the base would be stone with brick arches on top - at least for a little way anyway.Hope all the above makes sense guys. Dohhh !!! Having said all that, i go back to take another look at Phills piccys and guess what ? I see that the later extension over the river is indeed brick built on stone - maybe, just maybe this was the location where a girder bridge crossed the river in the dim and distant past.

Team stealth has been on the case and doing a bit of digging There is this interesting looking circular hole in the top of one of the arches. I doubt you'd have worked out what it was if it wasn't for the superb map recently uploaded. This area is just off Sandford Street near Cowbrough's storage arch.On closer inspection of the map it reveals that a circular lift was here in the lamp room at one time. I don't think it would have been a lift as we know it, more likely a rope worked hoist perhaps. The circular structure in the next arch marked as 'Foot warmers' isn't indicated, but it looks to me like it was a circular staircase? anymore ideas what it could be?A bigger map to get your bearings of the location.And where it all is in relation to the 'possible' mystery tramway.            

Phill_dvsn wrote: It's unusual to have that odd arch in the structure though.     Just a thought - that arch goes down to water level - is it to allow the water to flow more easily due to its proximity to the bank and the potential building of debris and water pressure on the pier?

Hi Phill. The circular feature you identify as a circular staircase was exactly that - it lasted up to the 1960s rebuild of the station, and I used it often to access the old lifts and my underground workshop. The circular lift was a horrifying device, still in place but disconnected at that time. It had no sides, just a lifting table, and would have been regarded as too dangerous for use for a good many years prior to the time I saw it. I have always assumed it was worked by the hydraulic system from Marsh Lane that I maintained during the early 1960s. The two then extant operating lifts and their subway can be seen next but one arch to the west on the 1874-91 (black) plan.As another thought on this general topic, perhaps the "red" plan was a early proposal, and what was built differed in some features? It doesn't seem to comply in a number of ways with the "black" plan, and is obviously an overlay of the previous site of the station, as all the previous buildings etc are to be seen. As we have seen, the third plan in this set was a proposal that was modified in many respects before reconstruction. In further support of this idea, what I believe to be the official "limit of deviation" plan for the application for the Parliamentary Act to compulsorily obtain the land to build the NER and L&NWR Leeds New Station appears on page 11 of "Leeds-Holbeck. The First Wisp of Steam" by R. Oliver (1980). This shows a boundary which differs from the "red" plan in one significant way. The southern boundary where it crosses the river does not veer inwards as it crosses the river and then continue narrower, but carries straight on. Further, comparing with the map on ages 32-33 of "Leeds Termini", Pixton and Hooper, 1998, that ground-plan together with the succeeding widenings can be followed, as can the various track layouts. The track layouts fit what was published on the configurations described in contemporary reports, with very little alteration other than additions from further widenings - and also fit with the boundaries of the parliamentary plan but not with those of the "red" plane I believe that these factors strongly support my feeling that the "red" plan was an early proposal, and that what was eventually built differed in several respects.

And a second thought - is the tram track and ramp a means of getting goods from south leeds up to the station without having to go around the houses via monk bridge/Aire Street and Leeds Bridge/Boar Lane?

Jim - I was thinking similar as the arrangements for the goit to the east differ from the way I understand it is (which is very possible).Can someone apply witchcraft and the black and red plans be overlaid? Also can the red plan current?    

Cardiarms wrote: Jim - I was thinking similar as the arrangements for the goit to the east differ from the way I understand it is (which is very possible).Can someone apply witchcraft and the black and red plans be overlaid? Also can the red plan current?     I'll have a go [when get back from the dentist] what is it that you want doing?