The dreaded FIRST BUS!

[chameleon]

On the other hand, any such worries could be addressed in more conventional ways. Just think how much money could be freed-up, it could be used for other (seemingly unimportant) matters, let me think.... keeping done fares or avoiding service cuts?What do the regulators think of their financial priorities I wonder.

[raveydavey]

It makes me laugh that they're trying to dress this up as them being more environmentally friendly.Any benefits to the poor polar bears come as a by product of them trying to save even more money.Mind you, I'm expecting the buses on our estate which has a 20 mph speed limit, might actually start to obey it as there will be a record of where they are and exactly what speed they're doing...

[stutterdog]

Si wrote: Hmmm...nasty. If there is a genuine concern about the level of driving skills on the buses, at least they could be honest about it, rather than dressing it up as a customer service/safety issue. Why spend a fortune on a "spy in the bus" when you could have a simple drivers' meeting? And isn't that why they employ inspectors? I don't think they have inspectors these days!

[BIG N]

Just to look at this from the other side for a moment, we are currently going through a programme of having a similar system fitted to our fleet (Arriva Yorkshire West), but its not quite the same as First buses system.Real time tracking via satalite has been in operation on our fleet for over two years and has actually brought benifits to both the drivers and passengers. To the drivers because the system automatically flags up in the office any bus running later than a pre set time (ours is currently set at 15 mins), this allows the management to monitor troublesome routes and also to contact the driver with a recovery plan if need be.Benifit to the passengers comes from the fact Metro also monitor all our services, which I assume they will with First bus (and suspect they might have a hand in forcing First to adopt this system), and have been issuing penalties for buses deliberatly running early in service, this has of course led to drivers being given a reprimand for early running.Obviously this is of benifit to the travelling public and it is reported that there has been a dramatic cut in early running coupled with a marked increase in puncuality.Our system now being installed is called Eco-manager and consists of a small box with a series of coloured lights (three green, two yellow and three red ) mounted on top of the dash.If a bus is being driven economically the lights will remain in the green band, if it is being worked a little harder, for example, when first setting off or going up hill, then the lights will be in the yellow band, if however it is being thrashed far too hard the lights will be in the red band.The idea is that when driving in everyday conditions you should be in the green for the biggest amount of time although it is understood that due to heavy loads, hills and stop / start driving there will be quite an amount of time spent in the yellow, it was also said that where we are on steep hills or at the top of the revs prior to gear changes etc there will be times spent in the red.The whole idea is to try and get drivers to drive more economically which in turn results in smoother operation and a better passenger ride.The system has been in full operation in the mersyside area for a while now and they have reported a fuel saving of around 4% anually, that doesnt sound a lot but if you take into account the fact that Heckmondwyke depot alone is currently using in the region of 2.000.000 gallons of fuel a year and we have 5 depots in Yorkshire then you can see the worth of this system.One thing that intruiges me though is how the bus will decide if the road is too bumpy - thats all they need, moody buses LOL

[chameleon]

The intention is quite laudible of course but, the way it's reported does bring two things to mind - drivers (and there are some - certainly not all) who don't care, the ones who perhaps need a tap on the shoulder, won't care and, on top of fares rises and the significant cuts to services on economic grounds, this is hardly a good time to sell it ti travelling man is it? People will have their own perceptions here and who can blame them for being cynical?Talking of Arriva, pity they don't have smoke detectors in the cabs, single deckker 163 one afternoon last week sat in City Square with the driver happily taking his 'ciggy break' for all to see in the cab of his bus! If I remember this was an offence long before the Smoke Free England legislation too!

[tyke bhoy]

I assume that Metro and probably first do monitor the "Your next bus" data from the GPS tracking. Metro do admit on their website it isn't on 100% of services (although no indication when the web page was put up/edited). There is also some mention of the bus station displays being updated this summer to carry real-time rather than just timetabled arrival/departures. No sign of this in Leeds yet despite there departure boards having had an outage of over a week and another outage of days within the last 12 months.I do wonder if Arriva have had a forced change on policy on "Early running". A few summers ago I wrote to them having had to wait regularly 15 or more minutes on a 10 minute service on a regular basis despite arriving at an official timing point 5 minutes before the bus was due. This usually having seen the bus go sailing past.There answer shocked me in that it was effectively "it is unacceptable for our drivers to run more than 5 minutes early". This suggests they were quite happy for the drivers to run up to 5 minutes early and be half way to the next timing point at the point they should be leaving this one.

[LS1]

I've got to say guy's that I do respect the bus drivers, I really dont know how they keep their sanity in Leeds city centre. However, some career around the place down Park Row, out along North Street and along Street Lane. Is there really any need to do this? How much extra fuel is burnt that is not necessary?The theory behind the tracking systems is great but a couple of my mates that work in utilities have just had theirs removed by the management, so overall a total waste of money!

[BIG N]

Tyke bhoy, I will try and answer a couple of your points as best I can tyke bhoy wrote: I assume that Metro and probably first do monitor the "Your next bus" data from the GPS tracking. Metro do admit on their website it isn't on 100% of services There is also some mention of the bus station displays being updated this summer to carry real-time rather than just timetabled arrival/departures. We are aware, as drivers, that Metro are currently in the process of introducing and upgrading "Real time" information in all their bus stations and at bus stops too.The system in Leeds bus station is antiquated to say the least and is still powered by a P.C. with all the info on it feeding the display units, this is most noticable on bank holidays if someone has forgotten to upload the special / sunday service info on a bank holiday Monday - then you get a normal days service's on the displays.Add to that the fact that some of the downloaded info is plainly wrong, for example we operate service 221 from Leeds to Heckmondwyke / Mirfield but one bus in the afternoon only runs to Batley and the goes onto a school service, this is still shown on the display as running to Mirfield.The biggest problem with real time info is educating the drivers to use the system properly, its only as good as the people programming the information in - and thats me and my fellow work mates.Let me give you a totally hyperthetical example to try and explain.Bus A leaves Anytown bus station at 15.00 and calls at Some place on its way to Yonder, the driver of Bus A works this service all the way to Yonder and puts all the relevant info into his ticket machine when he books up in Anytown bus station.Bus A will now transmit via its satalite tracking system all the info to Metros monitoring systems and show up on the departure board in Anytown bus station, it will also show up at Some place bus station and in any real time bus stops along the way.Bus B leaves Yonder at 15.10 and calls at Some place on its way to Anytown, the driver also inputs all the info and this bus shows up on real time as well.However the driver of bus B finishes at Some place and his relief books his ticket machine up when he takes over but puts his departure time in as the time he leaves Some place.In fact what he is supposed to do is input the departure time that bus B started from the beginning of its journey I.E. 15.10.The real time computer cannot find a service that matches what the relief driver has inputted and it removes bus B from any displays along the routeAs you can see, the system is only as good as the people operating it, and unfortunatly educating some people is like talking to a lamp post - only sometimes more rewarding lol.If you look at a "Real time" system (cleckheaton has one) you can tell instantly which buses are running and which ones are either incorrectly booked up or just missing from service.The ones that are running and booked correctly will say "Due in 7 mins or something similar ( because the system is tracking their progress ) the ones where there is an error or not running will simply show the timetabled departure time on the screen. tyke bhoy wrote: I do wonder if Arriva have had a forced change on policy on "Early running". A few summers ago I wrote to them having had to wait regularly 15 or more minutes on a 10 minute service on a regular basis As you say Tyke bhoy, this was several summers ago, the basic tracking system at that time monitered what was on the drivers module so it was easy for us to run early and not be detected, simply dont scroll your machine up to the next fare stage and you would appear on the computer to be wherever your ticket machine said on it, better still when we were running dead we would take the module out and dissapear off the system all together.Since the new system was introduced Arriva's policy on running early is a simple one - Zero tolarence although to be fair its only the ones that run three or four minutes early that draw the attention of the powers that be, those and repeat offenders.Company policy is - You can't always help being late, you can always prevent being early.Metro are activley monitoring early running and will fine companys for heavy offenders.

[raveydavey]

raveydavey wrote: E-mailed this to Metro today:I wonder if you can advise on the following issue?It has been widely reported that Metro pays a subsidy to First to fund / part-fund the 4 "ftr" service in Leeds, specifically the "customer service host" (conductors) aboard these buses. It has been reported that this subsidy constitutes a six figure sum, which is of course funded by the taxpayer.Given First's recent decision to scale back services on this route from 6 buses each way per hour to 5 buses each way per hour during Saturday daytime, can you please confirm that the subsidy paid to First by Metro has been reduced by a proportionate amount?This is especially pertinent as First are increasingly running traditional driver only operated buses on this route. In fact earlier today 3 buses heading past my house towards Leeds on this route in the space of 30 minutes were non-ftr buses. Two of the replacement buses were elderly double deckers*, which is hardly a good advertisement for what Metro promote as Leeds premier bus service. As First are clearly not employing the additional staff on these buses, loading times are identical to any other driver only operated bus which largely defeats the point of the ftr bus. Presumably First are also saving a considerable sum on wages here as well, which again calls into question the subsidy paid to them.If availability of the ftr buses is a problem, due to maintenance issues, etc, then I can't see any reason why the conductors cannot be deployed on the replacement buses to speed load times, etc, other than to save First in staff wages.I await your response.I'll let you know if I get a response It's becoming increasingly common for ftr's to be subsituted for whatever else is lying spare around the depot.* - I've nowt against elderly double deckers (in many respects they are superior to an ftr, ie your bum actually fits on the seat) but given Metro are pushing ftr's as "the future of public transport", they can hardly justify it can they? The number 4 route was one of the last bastions of the old Altanteans pre-withdrawal, which for all their faults did have comfortable seats. Response received from Metro today (after a polite chaser e-mail was sent)I refer to your enquiry to Metro, I apologise for the delay in replying to you.I can advise you that Metro does not fund the provision of customer service "hosts" on the ftr service. The additional costs of operating the service with two staff are borne by First.In common with many bus services across the city, Metro funds to operation of service 4 at the times of day/ week when the fares from passengers using the service would not be sufficient to fund its operation on a commercial basis without public subsidy. Hence in the case of service 4, Metro funds the 0510 departure from Whinmoor to Leeds, all services after 2100 and on Sundays the service before 0900 and after 2030.In addition to this, an agreement exists between First, Leeds City Council and Metro regarding the route. I note your concerns about the substitution of ftr vehicles with standard buses and can advise that Metro has raised this matter with First under the terms of this agreement.I hope this provides you with the information you requested.I wonder what "Metro has raised this matter with First under the terms of this agreement" is likely to result in..?

[tyke bhoy]

raveydavey wrote: [I wonder what "Metro has raised this matter with First under the terms of this agreement" is likely to result in..? I suspect they will get the same response attitude as METRO get from Northern who continue to issue sub standard Metro Cards printed on the same card in the same machine as the use once and dispose of train tickets. the irony is that the technology these Metro cards have to be issued for i.e. the station barriers is so full of holes that "fare dodging" or missed revenue collection must surely have increased since their introduction just under a year ago.