Leeds trolleybus scheme delayed further

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Mon 09 Jul, 2012 10:50 pm

headingleylad wrote: There will be still a chance of stopping the NGT (No Good Transport) next March when a Transport & Works Order needs to be applied for, as there is opportunity to put objections to the T.W.O. If PlillD is right with his report that it will not go behind the Arndale Centre at Headingley, the scheme is useless and no better than Diesel Buses.Personnally I have not seen any information about the route behind the Arndale Centre being cancelled and would like to see where this has come from. I said I believe it had be opposed to..question mark?No matter if it still goes ahead, it's less than 700 yards anyway, around five football pitches, hardly an incentive for people to leave their cars behind really, and hardly an innovative transport scheme for the future I.M.O. Anyone who's travelled along a guided bus lane will know they are ineffective unless they are incredibly long, the bus has to slow down to steer into the thing, travel along it slowly, because at high speed they bounce from side to side. Then they have to slow down to turn out of the thing. Useless-chocolate fireguard idea!

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Tue 10 Jul, 2012 12:59 am

Phill_dvsn wrote: headingleylad wrote: There will be still a chance of stopping the NGT (No Good Transport) next March when a Transport & Works Order needs to be applied for, as there is opportunity to put objections to the T.W.O. If PlillD is right with his report that it will not go behind the Arndale Centre at Headingley, the scheme is useless and no better than Diesel Buses.Personnally I have not seen any information about the route behind the Arndale Centre being cancelled and would like to see where this has come from. I said I believe it had be opposed to..question mark?No matter if it still goes ahead, it's less than 700 yards anyway, less than four football pitches, hardly an incentive for people to leave their cars behind really, and hardly an innovative transport scheme for the future I.M.O. Anyone who's travelled along a guided bus lane will know they are ineffective unless they are incredibly long, the bus has to slow down to steer into the thing, travel along it slowly, because at high speed they bounce from side to side. Then they have to slow down to turn out of the thing. Useless-chocolate fireguard idea! Depending on your "take" on off yer trolley hype,either very succinctly put or about as subtle as a bucket of septic s aitch 1t....! Personally,I think you know my stance on this particular subject well by now.I oftened laughed as I traversed up York Rd to Seacroft hospital to be overtaken by all manner of fairly slow transport.....for what ? To have the pleasure of bouncing from side to side at about 15mph to travel a few hundred yards.Yes,very imaginitive indeed(not).Alas,away now to catch "The Wicker Man" for the umpteenth time.Anthony Schaffers masterpiece.Night to you's all.

Brunel · Post by **Brunel** » Tue 10 Jul, 2012 8:12 am

The "route" behind the Arndale, was originally proposed as the route for Supertram.It is from Hinsley Hall to beyond Arndale.A lot of greenspace and property to be removed.

BLAKEY · Post by **BLAKEY** » Tue 10 Jul, 2012 9:11 am

Quite apart from any other issue on this particular topic I am fervently opposed to "guided busways" - firstly because they are totally un-necessary, expensive and very very unsightly, and more importantly that for around a century buses/trolleybuses have been fitted with such a system already - its called a steering wheel !! To complete the mode of operation all that is needed is a goodly supply of white paint for marking the roadways with "bus lane" - plus a few signs and priority traffic lights, and the vehicles will then continue to pick up where they should pick up - the existing pavements. No need to take expensive "field trips" to Europe and the USA for research - the occupants of the Civic Hall should just nip across to Burley Road where such a splendid system has inexpensively and miraculously transformed the outward journeys by bus, and a few yards away the Kirkstall Road masterpiece is due to open shortly. The latter is also very commendable indeed in terms of pleasing landscaping etc - as our meerkat star of the TV adverts says nowadays - SEEMPLE !!

simong · Post by **simong** » Tue 10 Jul, 2012 10:58 am

The irony of this whole scheme is that the only reason that we're getting a trolleybus, and the reason why there are guided busways in Leeds and indeed Bradford, is that in effect one company advised the government that trams would not be cost effective, and that same company advised local government all over the country that guided busways were an effective solution. It's that company who are pulling out of uneconomic routes and services everywhere and complaining about the proposal to apply quality indicators to public transport in West Yorkshire.

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Tue 10 Jul, 2012 11:18 am

simong wrote: The irony of this whole scheme is that the only reason that we're getting a trolleybus, and the reason why there are guided busways in Leeds and indeed Bradford, is that in effect one company advised the government that trams would not be cost effective, and that same company advised local government all over the country that guided busways were an effective solution. It's that company who are pulling out of uneconomic routes and services everywhere and complaining about the proposal to apply quality indicators to public transport in West Yorkshire. Wonder who that might be then......!

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Tue 10 Jul, 2012 11:21 am

What frustrates me about this is the complete short sightedness of the whole thing. I'm not sure if it is the council who are just totally incompetent and haven't a clue at all, or the fact they know they've failed to deliver any kind of good transport system for this city for so long. For example, when construction on this T Bus finally starts we will be 24 years behind Manchester, and 36 years behind Newcastle.I do feel they are so desperate and will settle for anything now, it's almost as if they've run away from Whitehall like schoolboys being told off when they've asked for more pocket money, go away and come back when you've lowered what your asking for. In all honesty this T Bus is nothing more than an FTR bus (Purple slug) the only difference is it takes it's power from overhead electric wires. Has the FTR proved a great success now all the hype of how it will transform transport in Leeds has died down? No it hasn't at all, it's made no difference whatsoever, you would have to ask yourself if it was such an amazing success, then why aren't they ordering these things like hotcakes? Why aren't the streets of Leeds full of them now?Because they offer nothing more than a cheaper built bus does that's why. We've all heard the sayings, if your going to do something, you may as well do it right, set your stall out right in the beginning, and build on good foundations. With T.Bus we have nothing at all to build on in the future, once down that road we can't turn back, we are stuck with it.The old saying 'You've made your bed, you better lie in it' springs to mind here.Once T.Bus on this new route has proved nothing more than an electric FTR purple slug on the number 4 route. Do the council knowing they have made a mistake try save face by either throwing more money at it and expanding something they know full well doesn't work? Or will they quietly shelve the thing and leave it as a one off scheme again, just like the FTR and Hybrid buses we already have?Nothing less than a fully integrated light rail system can work here, all other U.K cities have them, no other cities have used T.Bus. T.Bus is limited to what you can do with it, it simply cannot go away from road routes, it can never take in any great distances.There is so much lost opportunity by not building a supertram network in Leeds. Like Manchester, Leeds could use all it's disused rail infrastructure.The line to Harrogate would make a fantastic supertram line, just like they did in Manchester. B.R closed the Manchester-Bury line and it was converted to supertram. We've already seen they wish to electrify the Harrogate line, they were talking about bringing in ex London units for this purposehttp://www.harrogatechamber.org/harrogateline_news2.htmNot only is the Harrogate line perfect for light rail, it has the potential expansion of bringing the old Wetherby line back into use as supertram too. That was like a circuit, it connected up as seen on this map.The old Wetherby line is virtually fully intact, very few houses and structures have been built on it, indeed miles of it are designated cycle paths. So not only would supertram serve all stations to Harrogate, we get places like Spofforth, Wetherby, Collingham, Bardsey, Thorner, Scholes, Swarcliffe and Crossgates.How good would that line be leaving the old line at Crossgates for street running, straight past the station, and on into Leeds down segregated track along York Road? just think of all those park and rides possible to the North of Leeds, how many thousands of commuters travel from places like Wetherby every day into Leeds?Here's where the Harrogate line on the right joins the mainline near the Albion pub on Stanningley Road. Looking the other way, just look at all the room for extra track in the cutting towards Leeds, not only could the Harrogate line run down here, but extensions of the tramway towards Armley and Stanningley Road use this line.There is no cost of moving pipes under roads and buildings, the route is already there by-passing the notorious Armley Gyratory and Inner Ring Road as well.How quick would that be into town from the Albion pub on a tram down there? Less than a minute. Further down towards Leeds, we still don't need to dig up the roads, the old Central viaduct is crying out to once again be brought back into use. You have a choice here, either use the old low level goods line and build two bridges over the river and canal, or save cost and use the viaduct. A little remedial work on the viaduct would be all that's needed.And if by magic you have this massive expanse of dead land on the other side of the viaduct, as luck would have it is also a stones throw away from City station. If no one can't build an integrated tram/train and bus station here, well I'll eat my hat! Now that really is what you do call 'integrated transport'Then of course we have the disused 1,500 yard Holbeck viaduct to utilise too, that cuts out all the traffic jams from Elland Road. The possibilities are endless with this mode of transport.If we choose T.Bus, then we have nothing at all like this to ever build on. T.Bus will fail without a doubt, and those immortal words will ring very loud indeed ''I TOLD YOU SO''

somme1916 · Post by **somme1916** » Tue 10 Jul, 2012 12:37 pm

Amazing Phill, you obviously missed your true vocation in life ! Excellent work/ideas......hopefully,you may receive a call from somebody at Civic Hall to discuss your consultancy work.p.s.Don't hold your breath.All the same,excellent piece.

BLAKEY · Post by **BLAKEY** » Tue 10 Jul, 2012 12:52 pm

''I TOLD YOU SO'' Nothing more to add - Phill for Minister of Transport I say, and with such clear and realistic thinking you could also take over the Treasury and save us more millions/billions !!

Squatch_11 · Post by **Squatch_11** » Tue 10 Jul, 2012 1:16 pm

They are some intersting propositions, especially the idea of a new interchange on the site of the old city station, but it might be worth considering more in line with HS2 - realistically a relatively local transport scheme is going to struggle to fund a building the size of the that area. Maybe you should write to someone in Metro and/or the Council with these ideas.With regards to the Wetherby line, I think it's just too far gone to justify the cost - I certainly can't see heavy rail back on it, as the compulsory purchase costs alone would make it a difficult business case. Maybe light rail could be the answer, but it's about an 8 mile stretch, and if one considers that an American study showed a mile of tramway to cost somewhere between $15m->$100m, even in th best case circumstances, you're $120m (so £80m) into your £200m before you start to build stations, buy trams, re-route whatever you need to re-route etc.And that gets you one route to the North of the city. Now we can argue all day about whether Leeds deserves more than £200m for a transport scheme, I think we'd all agree yes it does, but it's not been forthcoming in 20 years or more. That seems to be changing with the creation on the Leeds City area, which gives more autonomy from Whitehall, so you never know in the future. Maybe some of you should run for councillors, then you can see whether you can get your visions turned into reality while there's some money!