Steam trains on BBC

[Reginal Perrin]

Steam train taking on water from trough via tender mounted scoop

[cnosni]

rangieowner wrote: chameleon wrote: A little different but perhaps worth a watch for entertainment at least, the Top Gear team v the Tornado.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8106414.stm     That was absolute tosh!!!! Tornado had an huge lead which evaporated for no apparent reason! Yes I know Tornado had some problems on that trip (or was that just for drama?) But in a true race i would back Tornado to win that race any day of the week!! P.S. It is my understanding that because Tornado meets modern standards of Elfin safety, it is limited to 90 mph NOT 75mph as stated on TG and most of the story JC spouted about tornado's conception and birth were absolute BS!!! Rant over, for now!! Hi RangieI was working off London that day when it was being filmed,i passed it at Tallington,just north of Peterborough.Tornado was on the slow lines for most,if not probably all of the way out of London to Stoke junction,just south of Grantham.Max line speed varies between 75 to 80 mph,mostly 75,sp perhaps this was the 75 mph factor JC was referring to.From Stoke to Doncaster,then Doncaster to York its 2 track 115 to 125 mph.York to Northallerton is 4 track.(at Donny i wound up some spotters and told them Tornado had failed,you should have seen em scrambling for their mobiles to tell their mates!!)Thouigh i did not see it for myself then i assume that Tornado would have been on the slow from York to Northallerton ,where it reduces once again from 4 track to 2 track. Though the stretch from Northallerton to Newcastle is signalled to allow trains to run in either direction on each line, using simplified bi directional signalling, this signalling system is only used during disruption and carries a 50mph max speed when a train is travelling on the other line to which it is supposed to normally travel.There are places that Tornado would also have been put "out of the way" in loops,and also held at junctions to allow normal services to run on time.I dare say that Tornados "timings" were also calculated to facilitate normal timetable running,hence 75 mph on the stretches of track (eg Stoke to Doncaster and on to York,Northallerton to Newcastle) where the line speed is higher than the 75mph on slow lines of the 4 track sections.North of Newcastle is not my area of route knowledge,but from what i understand i believe its all just two track all the way to Edingburgh, with various loops along the way.As a consequence of this then Tornado would have been put in those loops to allow high speed trains to run at their line speed.This wasnt shown or explained on the program.There was also a wonderful example of signalling ,slowing the train right down to a red only for it to come off to a green at the last minute.On the approach to to stations this can happen a lot,and has a significant effect on the timings.There would also have been lots of cautionary signals on the approach to Edingburgh and for that fact any station where a train in front of Tornado would have been stopping.If these restrictions and hinderances werent existant on the railway then yes Tornado would have won.BUT,if the same hinderances that exist on the roads (traffic,speed rfestrictions,traffic lights,road works)were also removed then the Jag would also have probably beaten Tornado.

[trophy]

Trojan wrote: trophy wrote: in the days of steam the engine would not need to stop for water this would be picked up from water troughs so it would be well in front. still a great programe. That's true, but they also took on coal. What puzzled me was that in the days of steam "The Flying Scotsman" was booked non stop London to Edinburgh by using the corridor tender - so why did Tornado which presumably was pulling a tender of equal capacity to that used in those days need to replenish its coal? the engine would have been insteam for longer eg water stops looped for faster trains,so would have needed more coal also the gresley A4 used on the non stops was lighter on coal than an A1.

[Trojan]

trophy wrote: Trojan wrote: trophy wrote: in the days of steam the engine would not need to stop for water this would be picked up from water troughs so it would be well in front. still a great programe. That's true, but they also took on coal. What puzzled me was that in the days of steam "The Flying Scotsman" was booked non stop London to Edinburgh by using the corridor tender - so why did Tornado which presumably was pulling a tender of equal capacity to that used in those days need to replenish its coal? the engine would have been insteam for longer eg water stops looped for faster trains,so would have needed more coal also the gresley A4 used on the non stops was lighter on coal than an A1. But twice? Once at Grantham and again at Newcastle?To digress, in the days of steam my uncle told me that you could sit on the top of Sutton Bank and watch a steam loco's progress from York to Darlington, by following the smoke.

[electricaldave]

If we allow for the hold ups on Tornado, then we should allow for the hold ups on the A1. Except the hold ups on the A1 are not even slightly similar to what they would have been back when the race was supposed to be set.The road vehicles should not have been allowed to use the motorways at any time. I also know of cyclists on time trial races where they were held up on the A1 for level crossings, it was single carriageway for the entire length back then, those level crossings were still in operation during the 1960's.In addition, the A1 is rather shorter than it was, the roads is more level, the inclines have been smoothed out, plus of course, the A1 does not go right through the centre of the towns that it once did.When you start to add all that lot up, you'd find the train journey was faster by a goodly number of hours.To give you an idea of how much the road network has changed, think of the old York road, it went through Whitwell on the Hill, through Malton, York Tadaster, and once you got past Malton it swung around all over, it was a good 20 miles further by road to Scarborough than it is today, in fact it was a common challenge for cyclists back then to make it there and back to Scarborough in a day, and this was certainly true right through to the 1950's - just think about how much York road has changed since 1950 just in Leeds, now imagine the same story with the A1.Edinburgh to London was a one day ride by train, but by car it would have been two, easily.The car would not even get close to the train until the late 1960's, and that's by steam not diesel.

[Trojan]

electricaldave wrote: If we allow for the hold ups on Tornado, then we should allow for the hold ups on the A1. Except the hold ups on the A1 are not even slightly similar to what they would have been back when the race was supposed to be set.The road vehicles should not have been allowed to use the motorways at any time. I also know of cyclists on time trial races where they were held up on the A1 for level crossings, it was single carriageway for the entire length back then, those level crossings were still in operation during the 1960's.In addition, the A1 is rather shorter than it was, the roads is more level, the inclines have been smoothed out, plus of course, the A1 does not go right through the centre of the towns that it once did.When you start to add all that lot up, you'd find the train journey was faster by a goodly number of hours.To give you an idea of how much the road network has changed, think of the old York road, it went through Whitwell on the Hill, through Malton, York Tadaster, and once you got past Malton it swung around all over, it was a good 20 miles further by road to Scarborough than it is today, in fact it was a common challenge for cyclists back then to make it there and back to Scarborough in a day, and this was certainly true right through to the 1950's - just think about how much York road has changed since 1950 just in Leeds, now imagine the same story with the A1.Edinburgh to London was a one day ride by train, but by car it would have been two, easily.The car would not even get close to the train until the late 1960's, and that's by steam not diesel. This is true. The old Great North Road, went through the centres of Grantham, Newark, Retford, Bawtry, Doncaster Ferrybridge, Wetherby, and Boroughbridge and presumably plent of other places. I remember going to Yarmouth by coach from Morley in 1962. It took four hours to get to Newark

[railnut]

I remember my Dad saying that if you got through Doncaster by 7-30 you would make London by 12-00. Further south it was Retford, Peterborough, Hitchin, Biggleswade and all shacks in between. Then it was Potters Bar which nowadays you think you've made it with the M25 and all that!