Rail Re-Openings - Dr Beeching

[Fleetline]

Reginal Perrin wrote: Loiner Paul wrote: Even just to re-open some of the stations closed in the area on the existing lines would be a great help to getting some of the commuter traffic off the roads. It seems the stations that have been re-opened have had to go through a large amount of consultation in planning and studying before anything comes of it. What amazes me that the White Rose Centre has 2 rail lines passing it and yet doesn't have a station on either. Every shopper is brought in there by car or bus with the roads around the area regularly blocked with traffic. Why didn't Leeds City Council insist on a rail station? The White Rose centre is a prime example of how things are done in Leeds. Badly. We are a richer city than Sheffield yet we get a White Rose centre and they get Meadowhall. We get a paved area called Millenium Square they get an indoor arena. We get South Leeds Stadium and they get Don Valley. We get half assed promised and two purple bendy buses they get a tram system. Thats because Leeds is a richer city! Sheffield is so run down it is eligible for tons of European money. So much, they can't get rid of the stuff! I was at a meeting for funding for the whole region earlier in the year, and South Yorkshire got over half!

[cnosni]

Fleetline wrote: Reginal Perrin wrote: Loiner Paul wrote: Even just to re-open some of the stations closed in the area on the existing lines would be a great help to getting some of the commuter traffic off the roads. It seems the stations that have been re-opened have had to go through a large amount of consultation in planning and studying before anything comes of it. What amazes me that the White Rose Centre has 2 rail lines passing it and yet doesn't have a station on either. Every shopper is brought in there by car or bus with the roads around the area regularly blocked with traffic. Why didn't Leeds City Council insist on a rail station? The White Rose centre is a prime example of how things are done in Leeds. Badly. We are a richer city than Sheffield yet we get a White Rose centre and they get Meadowhall. We get a paved area called Millenium Square they get an indoor arena. We get South Leeds Stadium and they get Don Valley. We get half assed promised and two purple bendy buses they get a tram system. Thats because Leeds is a richer city! Sheffield is so run down it is eligible for tons of European money. So much, they can't get rid of the stuff! I was at a meeting for funding for the whole region earlier in the year, and South Yorkshire got over half! Thats exactly what im talking about,the perception that Leeds can pay for what it wants,which is not true.I would say were middle of the road,we have some run down areas as bad as anywhere in the country,and we have some very well off parts too.Weve never been in the headlines for crime,depravity,strike action etc,we are in the middle of the country,yet at the back of the minds of those in charge.The fact that we have never suffered wholesale abject poverty,unlike Sheffield and Liverpool and the Greater Manchester area is on the whole a good thing,but as a result we have now fallen behind most of the UKs other big cities because of this.Perhaps the balance should now be redressed.Sheffield was run down,the facilities it has are far better than that of Leeds,so why does it continue to get half the cash?Its about perceptions,and the perceptions are that Leeds can afford to be self finanancing.Successive councils of all the politaical spectrum have never delivered the facilities on transport infrastruture and leisure,because the city DOES NOT have the money,simple as that.If it did then we would have facilities to match.Leeds lets itself down by overplaying the success that it has genuinely had,and not emphasising its short comings.We need to plead a bit of poverty,or at least get some people in who can do the right things in bids for subsidies that others getThe final Leeds supertram bid was deemed to return a better pound for pound investment return than the 3rd extension to Manchesters own tram.Yet they got it,because they made a noise,the people rallied together and even had a petition presented to Downing Street by bl**dy Fizz off Corra,which was even on the 10 o clock news.(plus that year the Labour Party Confrence was in Manchester,which is when the granting of the funding was announced)What did we do?We sent down a couple of Civic Hall Mandarins to have Tea and Buscuits in a little office to be told no.

[cnosni]

Reginal Perrin wrote: edgey2001 wrote: Did anyone watch the programs last night on BBC4 about Britains railways, A fascinating interview with Beeching from 1981, He was still repentant even then and didnt regret anything at all about his infamous Re-shaping report, which brings me onto the former rail network around Leeds, Just for instance a large pot of money was available to improve the local network, Which line or station do you think could be re-opened and would pay its way now?, what about the Leeds wetherby Line for example, it is generally still intact and could cut congestion in that part of the region. your views please. What fascinated me about the program was the interviews with commuters of the day. Nobody wanted this and they stated they didn't care if it lost a bit of money the service invaluable. The whole thing was a scandal with Marples making money building roads.I would reopen the pit line between Rothwell and Hunslet for a cummuter service. They should make it a law that when you build a road you build a railtrack along side it as part of the project. Good point over the road rail thing Reg,but there is a definite lack of ambition to build new lines,because of money.Only new lines will fuully improve the network.Lengthening trains and platforms will mean getting more passengers on trains,but you cant really increase the frequency because the current lines are chocka block,there are very few paths to run extra services.As its envisaged that there will be a 47% increase in rail use then im afraid the current network,even with longer trains,will not cope.Someone will eventually have to bite the bullet because of meltdown.Unfortunately the bullet will probably be made of Gold,and we all know how much that costs these days.Its all down to this££££££££££££££££££

[Bramley4woods]

Loiner Paul wrote: Even just to re-open some of the stations closed in the area on the existing lines would be a great help to getting some of the commuter traffic off the roads. It seems the stations that have been re-opened have had to go through a large amount of consultation in planning and studying before anything comes of it. What amazes me that the White Rose Centre has 2 rail lines passing it and yet doesn't have a station on either. Every shopper is brought in there by car or bus with the roads around the area regularly blocked with traffic. Why didn't Leeds City Council insist on a rail station? The trouble is that anything to do with heavy rail is ruinously expensive, even just a couple of hundred metres of track. In Manchester they built the "Windsor Curve" which linked lines which were originallly built by different railway companies running to different stations, this enabled trains to run through the city direct to new destinations, as opposed to having the passengers get off and walk between stations, it was only a couple of hundred metres of track running through the old Salford Gas Works site but it cost an absolute bomb.There are actually three railway lines running past the White Rose Centre. The third is dismantled but used to join the Wakefield line just further up than Stank Hall Barn to join the Wakefield to Bradford line (dismantled) near Tingley station (also dismantled).You would have thought with all that ex-railway land available a park and ride and a link to the White Rose Centre could have been created somehow.Another possibility would have been to bring the old "Viaduct Line" back into service to serve a park and ride on the Gelderd Road/ M621 and the White Rose Centre via a Widened Churwell Viaduct. Most of the remaining undeveloped land near the bottom of the M621 is unsuitable for building because it's just landscaped old slagheaps.

[liits]

Reginal Perrin wrote: Loiner Paul wrote: Even just to re-open some of the stations closed in the area on the existing lines would be a great help to getting some of the commuter traffic off the roads. It seems the stations that have been re-opened have had to go through a large amount of consultation in planning and studying before anything comes of it. What amazes me that the White Rose Centre has 2 rail lines passing it and yet doesn't have a station on either. Every shopper is brought in there by car or bus with the roads around the area regularly blocked with traffic. Why didn't Leeds City Council insist on a rail station? The White Rose centre is a prime example of how things are done in Leeds. Badly. We are a richer city than Sheffield yet we get a White Rose centre and they get Meadowhall. We get a paved area called Millenium Square they get an indoor arena. We get South Leeds Stadium and they get Don Valley. We get half assed promised and two purple bendy buses they get a tram system. Leeds was ever the same. If you think of trams, Sheffield has a new[ish] tram system, as does Manchester. Leeds had the chance to have an underground system, mostly funded by the government. It was also to provide mass public shelters in time of war, but, it never happened. By the time the analysis had been done, the chance to lay hands to govenment money had passed. In terms of "super-tram! does this sound familiar?

[Brandy]

cnosni wrote: Reginal Perrin wrote: Loiner Paul wrote: Even just to re-open some of the stations closed in the area on the existing lines would be a great help to getting some of the commuter traffic off the roads. It seems the stations that have been re-opened have had to go through a large amount of consultation in planning and studying before anything comes of it. What amazes me that the White Rose Centre has 2 rail lines passing it and yet doesn't have a station on either. Every shopper is brought in there by car or bus with the roads around the area regularly blocked with traffic. Why didn't Leeds City Council insist on a rail station? The White Rose centre is a prime example of how things are done in Leeds. Badly. We are a richer city than Sheffield yet we get a White Rose centre and they get Meadowhall. We get a paved area called Millenium Square they get an indoor arena. We get South Leeds Stadium and they get Don Valley. We get half assed promised and two purple bendy buses they get a tram system. Your right mate,but there are some reasons i think that can explain.The White Rose is meant to complement the City centre,whereas Meadowhall decimated the centre of an already ailing City centre,which i believe is coming back now.I prefer the White Rose as it is,keep the City Centre just that,THE Centre,the White Rose is ok for a quick visit if you are short of time.The Sheffield Supertram was commisioned and paid for by South Yorkshire as a whole,all the taxpayers in South Yorkshirepay towards it still,and of course it got a leg up from the governmentMust be a pain for those down there who dont actually benefit from it.The Don Valley stadium,and all the other sporting facilities were heavily subsidised by the government for the 1991 World Student Games to regenerate vast swathes of brownfield sites following the loss of the steel industry.We get the South Leeds Sports centre,and now nothing in the City Centre,where as Ponds forge in Sheffield is in the centre and can be reached by all,including those on public transport.This is the failing of Leeds council here,clearly Sheffield could see the benefit of such a centrally located facility,whereas Leeds wants the money from the land at the International Pool.Obviously Sheffield can to a certain extent afford to do this because of the subsidies they recieve as the National City of SportEverything you say i agree with,but Sheffield has recieved massive government handouts,along with Manchester,Liverpool and of course the capital itself.Leeds gets nowt.and plenty of it.I think for a number of reasons which i have gone into before,namely despite the fact that Leeds suuffered massive job losses in the clothing trade we still ahd plenty of other eggs in the basket,where as Manchester,Sheffield and Liverpool tended to have one main source of employment.Though we suffered just as much,if not more job losses the Leeds lot ,rather than wait to be helped,actually went and helped themselves,an attribute of which,as a Loiner,am very proud.However because of this we didnt make a lot of noise,so the government thought,and still do,"Oh Leeds is Ok,they cant be doing too bad,theres no picket lines,no left wing councils taking over,anbd look they keep telling everyone they are the fasted growing city in Europe,they are the Knightbridge of the North.They are clearly ok so let them get on with it"and to an extent they have done just that.But,also,the council fail miserably at getting government funding,they present their cases for various projects poorly,the supertram for example,we get knocked back and Manchester gets granted a shed load of money for the 3rd part of their tram,not long after Croydon (Croydon for Christs sake!) and Edinburgh get theirs granted .Edingburgh was given the go ahead by the then Transport Minister Alistair Darling,who just happens to be MP for Edingburgh West,a bit like when Barnbow was shut in favour of Vickers at Sedgefield,when the incumbent MP was a Mr Tony Blair,PMSo i believe that overall we are victims,victims of our own get up and go attitude,but also of overstating our actual position in the UK and also of not having the right people biding for the government handouts.As for Sheffield Arena,then im not surprised they got that,they must have had a wad of spare cash from the government regeneration subsidies.     I swear to god Chris,if they(LCC)would give you the reins of the city for one week you would have it SORTED!In fact screw a week you'd probably do it in one afternoon and still be home in time for countdownCNOSNI for president! that's what i say.

[cnosni]

Bramley4woods wrote: Loiner Paul wrote: Even just to re-open some of the stations closed in the area on the existing lines would be a great help to getting some of the commuter traffic off the roads. It seems the stations that have been re-opened have had to go through a large amount of consultation in planning and studying before anything comes of it. What amazes me that the White Rose Centre has 2 rail lines passing it and yet doesn't have a station on either. Every shopper is brought in there by car or bus with the roads around the area regularly blocked with traffic. Why didn't Leeds City Council insist on a rail station? The trouble is that anything to do with heavy rail is ruinously expensive, even just a couple of hundred metres of track. In Manchester they built the "Windsor Curve" which linked lines which were originallly built by different railway companies running to different stations, this enabled trains to run through the city direct to new destinations, as opposed to having the passengers get off and walk between stations, it was only a couple of hundred metres of track running through the old Salford Gas Works site but it cost an absolute bomb.There are actually three railway lines running past the White Rose Centre. The third is dismantled but used to join the Wakefield line just further up than Stank Hall Barn to join the Wakefield to Bradford line (dismantled) near Tingley station (also dismantled).You would have thought with all that ex-railway land available a park and ride and a link to the White Rose Centre could have been created somehow.Another possibility would have been to bring the old "Viaduct Line" back into service to serve a park and ride on the Gelderd Road/ M621 and the White Rose Centre via a Widened Churwell Viaduct. Most of the remaining undeveloped land near the bottom of the M621 is unsuitable for building because it's just landscaped old slagheaps. You are absolutely right about cost.I had a top (I mean a TOP)bod in the cab a while ago and i made a suggestion about Wakefield westgates track layout,and how by putting in a set of points ,a short (300 to 400 yards)length of track and an adjustment to the indications on an already existant signal that this would negate the need for a 2 car unit shunting up from Wakefield Kirkgate into Wrenthorpe sidings to hold up Inter city services out of platform one southbound(up direction) and Northbound(down direction).He said they had looked at it 5 years ago and it would cost £3/4 M then.They know what needs to be done,they would like to do it,but no matter what we say on this site or others such as Skyscraper City (where you get the same people banging on about the same old stuff over and over and over and over again) they wont,because of the cost.Its chuffing mad,absolutely mad,but it will take lots of little things such as wakefield westgate at £3/4M and brand new lines to bring this countrys railways up to scratch.We are running on railway routes that are 150 years old,we are that much out of date.The best railways in the world are Germany,France and Japan.What do they have in common?They were blown to smithereens in WW2,and had no choice but to build anew.We may have won the war,but we have lost the peace.Still,we won the war,ill stand on a train or a bus before i kiss the feet of an invader.Better to live on yer feet than die on yer knees.

[cnosni]

Brandy wrote: cnosni wrote: Reginal Perrin wrote: Loiner Paul wrote: Even just to re-open some of the stations closed in the area on the existing lines would be a great help to getting some of the commuter traffic off the roads. It seems the stations that have been re-opened have had to go through a large amount of consultation in planning and studying before anything comes of it. What amazes me that the White Rose Centre has 2 rail lines passing it and yet doesn't have a station on either. Every shopper is brought in there by car or bus with the roads around the area regularly blocked with traffic. Why didn't Leeds City Council insist on a rail station? The White Rose centre is a prime example of how things are done in Leeds. Badly. We are a richer city than Sheffield yet we get a White Rose centre and they get Meadowhall. We get a paved area called Millenium Square they get an indoor arena. We get South Leeds Stadium and they get Don Valley. We get half assed promised and two purple bendy buses they get a tram system. Your right mate,but there are some reasons i think that can explain.The White Rose is meant to complement the City centre,whereas Meadowhall decimated the centre of an already ailing City centre,which i believe is coming back now.I prefer the White Rose as it is,keep the City Centre just that,THE Centre,the White Rose is ok for a quick visit if you are short of time.The Sheffield Supertram was commisioned and paid for by South Yorkshire as a whole,all the taxpayers in South Yorkshirepay towards it still,and of course it got a leg up from the governmentMust be a pain for those down there who dont actually benefit from it.The Don Valley stadium,and all the other sporting facilities were heavily subsidised by the government for the 1991 World Student Games to regenerate vast swathes of brownfield sites following the loss of the steel industry.We get the South Leeds Sports centre,and now nothing in the City Centre,where as Ponds forge in Sheffield is in the centre and can be reached by all,including those on public transport.This is the failing of Leeds council here,clearly Sheffield could see the benefit of such a centrally located facility,whereas Leeds wants the money from the land at the International Pool.Obviously Sheffield can to a certain extent afford to do this because of the subsidies they recieve as the National City of SportEverything you say i agree with,but Sheffield has recieved massive government handouts,along with Manchester,Liverpool and of course the capital itself.Leeds gets nowt.and plenty of it.I think for a number of reasons which i have gone into before,namely despite the fact that Leeds suuffered massive job losses in the clothing trade we still ahd plenty of other eggs in the basket,where as Manchester,Sheffield and Liverpool tended to have one main source of employment.Though we suffered just as much,if not more job losses the Leeds lot ,rather than wait to be helped,actually went and helped themselves,an attribute of which,as a Loiner,am very proud.However because of this we didnt make a lot of noise,so the government thought,and still do,"Oh Leeds is Ok,they cant be doing too bad,theres no picket lines,no left wing councils taking over,anbd look they keep telling everyone they are the fasted growing city in Europe,they are the Knightbridge of the North.They are clearly ok so let them get on with it"and to an extent they have done just that.But,also,the council fail miserably at getting government funding,they present their cases for various projects poorly,the supertram for example,we get knocked back and Manchester gets granted a shed load of money for the 3rd part of their tram,not long after Croydon (Croydon for Christs sake!) and Edinburgh get theirs granted .Edingburgh was given the go ahead by the then Transport Minister Alistair Darling,who just happens to be MP for Edingburgh West,a bit like when Barnbow was shut in favour of Vickers at Sedgefield,when the incumbent MP was a Mr Tony Blair,PMSo i believe that overall we are victims,victims of our own get up and go attitude,but also of overstating our actual position in the UK and also of not having the right people biding for the government handouts.As for Sheffield Arena,then im not surprised they got that,they must have had a wad of spare cash from the government regeneration subsidies.     I swear to god Chris,if they(LCC)would give you the reins of the city for one week you would have it SORTED!In fact screw a week you'd probably do it in one afternoon and still be home in time for countdownCNOSNI for president! that's what i say. Sorry mate,im too passionate.I Would upset too many people with my radical middle of the road points of view.Im the everyday bloke in the street who doesnt get to air their points of view in a wide political arena because ive not had the benefit of higher education,but i know whats right and wrong,though i dont always put this across.I dislike the left and the right,infact my mother always told me that the left and the right went so far away from each other that they eventually met up again,Stalin and Hitler,Putin and Bush being prime examples.By the way i dont like countdown,its SOOOO reactionary.

[cnosni]

double post    

[Trojan]

liits wrote: [ We get South Leeds Stadium and they get Don Valley. We get half assed promised and two purple bendy buses they get a tram system. Yes and Sheffield haven't finished paying for the Don Valley white elephant 17 years after the World Student Games finished.