SuperTram Mk II?

[tyke bhoy]

http://www.ngtmetro.com/Well not quite but I see they aren't being very original with the proposed routes (follow the about ngt link) being almost identical to the revised routes on Supertram at the time of its demise.

[Reginal Perrin]

So 19 years after the first Supertram was supopsed to be in oeration we get a fleet of bemndy buses which don't even service the suburbs where those who work in Leeds, live.Half assed shambles.

[cnosni]

Reginal Perrin wrote: So 19 years after the first Supertram was supopsed to be in oeration we get a fleet of bemndy buses which don't even service the suburbs where those who work in Leeds, live.Half assed shambles. Couldnt agree more.A bendy bus is still a bus.You cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear.This is no different to park and rides up and down the country,and will not convince people to leave their cars.Whats needed is frequent,fast,express (non intermediate stop from park and ride areas,),clean cheap mass transport that will appeal to commuters enough to leave their cars in car park.You might as well be sat comfortable in a traffic jam in your own car,try and get out of the jam yourself,rather than sat on a bus.Why not bite the bullet,put a case forward to the people of Leeds for a self financed supertram and add it to the council tax bill for the next 25 to 30 years.

[simonm]

Trouble with adding stuff to the CT bill for the next umph years is that it doesn't work. Sheffield nearly went bankrupt doing the very same thing.    

[tyke bhoy]

I've broken the justification for the routes down to comment on them. ngt wrote: The routes identified are those where research shows congestion will cause problems too great to be dealt with by regular buses Otley Road is a problem and I guess York Road is too but congestion on Bus Routes through Hunslet has been greatly improved by the John Smeaton viaduct (which I believe is officially opened tomoroww by Geoff Hoon ngt wrote: where there is no easily accessible rail alternative So Horsforth, Headingley, Burley Park, Woodlesford, Outwood and Cross Gates don't have railway stations then? There is also a wondeful oprtunity for a Park and Ride station to be built at Stourton. ngt wrote: would help to improve links to important facilities such as education, hospitals and places of work. Does this depend on if and then where the Newly Created Leeds College (Park Lane/LCT/Thomas Danby) move to. Yes we have two Universities on Otley Road but one will surely be easily accessible on foot from where the terminus would be for all but the terminally lazy . It will also be almost as far from any stop to the LGI as it would be for the terminus. Adding Jimmy's is lip service in my opinion. ngt wrote: Carrying large numbers of people Optimistic? ngt wrote: NGT would have its own dedicated lanes wherever possible to get around congestion hotspots and make journeys quicker and more reliable. The main hotspot on Otley Road is Kirkstall Lane(?) to Shaw Lane. I don't think there is much scope for a dedicated lane between those two junction or in the immediate vicinity either way. As mentioned the Hunslet Hotspot has been eased/removed.    

[Cardiarms]

What's the bet that the relief road around the back of the Arndale, the Oak and St Coulmba's raises its head again?

[simong]

It looks like a rehash of the tram routes but retooled for rubber-tyred vehicles, no doubt with FTR being the favoured solution, for First at least. It doesn't resolve a major bottleneck on the way in and out of Leeds though, in the shape of Kirkstall Road, nor does it provide any extra capacity on the A65 corridor, which is one of the most rapidly expanding in the area - Kirkstall Forge will be taking in residents by the time this is ready and unless something is going to be done about the Ilkley line if and when its railway station is built, they're going to be travelling by road.A Park and Ride somewhere north of the ring road would hopefully also take a bit of traffic off the A65, but why isn't there one at the end of York Road too?It will cover a wider area than a tram line would have, and for cheaper, but unless it will be expanded to meet the requirements of what is of course the fastest growing city in the country, it's going to perpetually lag. The cynic in me says that it's just another plan by First to get some new stock and some new bus lanes.

[Reginal Perrin]

Park and ride is crazy. Why would someone who lives in a suburb like and has a family take a car and leave it in a car park all day and then pay for a bus to go to work?Surely it is more appropriate to make have terminus at major suburbs. No one is goign to drive from say Rothwell to Stourton to catch a bus as they would be owning a car for the sole purpose of getting them to the bus of a morning. Stupid.The Hunslet bottle neck has been aleviated somewhat and will be even better when the road through cross green to the M1 opens as it removes all the traffic coming south to the 621 which currently has to come off at Rothwell and drive past Arla Foods to briefly join the A61.    

[Reginal Perrin]

What would make people use the new system?Me? If it was a pound each way and it went from the centre of Rothwell. Otherwise it's no use to me.

[cnosni]

Reginal Perrin wrote: What would make people use the new system?Me? If it was a pound each way and it went from the centre of Rothwell. Otherwise it's no use to me. Well im in Beeston and theres jack Sh** proposed for here any way.People within the immediate environs of Leeds ,Rothwell for example,probably wouldnt want to use the park and ride because their journey is relatively short distance wise.That doesnt mean that a park and ride wouldnt benefit people in Rothwell who travel into Leeds,especially by car.What we need to do is reduce the number of cars coming into Leeds from further afield,this will alleviate a dgree of congestion to the benefit of those with and on the immediate environs of Leeds.To reduce these longer distance travellers we need to encourage them to drive (because we are never ever ever going to get a decent rail network) to a park and ride and be able to get on a fast, direct,cheap comfortable peak time service from the park and ride to town,and back again.If we start routing whatever (if anything) is chosen down Low road in Hunslet,or York road from the east then this isnt going to happen.I Went to the NGT van outside the art gallery and filled in some questionnaires today.I asked in there about more details,and made some observations and a couple of suggestions.I sput forward the idea of direct non stopping peak hour services from Stourton,onto the M621 and into town via Junction 4.This junction appears to be less well used than 3,and has also benefitted from the new road layout and direct slip road south/east bound back onto the M621,this would naturally be the route used back to Stourton.As for an eastern point for a park and ride then surely using either the A64 or A63 is a no go.So why not locate one at the soon to be opened jcn 45 of the M1.Again benefitting from a new high usage road infrastructure this will provide an overall faster journey from the east into town.Sure it would mean going all the way from the A64 at to just past Temple Newsam,but this would be done on multi lane high speed roadway,instead of trundling along on single lane congested ,low speed,traffic light infested road from the A1 to town.this location would also well serve Garforth and off an alternative for those in Rothwell,should they wiosh to use it.Once again,im sure its not as straight forward as that (eg the NGT people said that use of the motorway had been considered,but the Highways Agency were not happy about buses on prime road networks)The NGT people also said they were considereing utilising some old railbeds in the Hunslet area instead of Low Road,not sure where these are though.As for the North and west well i dont think there really is much scope with the current network.I think that the only realistic alternative would be to invest in the rail infrastructure.From the North,Harrogate etc,an upgrade of the signalling system alone is enough to greatly increase the amount of trains per hour from there to Leeds.the current signalling system between Horsforth and Harrogate is whats called absolute block,its still monitored manually so to speak,by the use of bells between signal boxes.For instance when going to HArrogate ,once past the signal after Horsforth,the next signal after that is at Rigton Level Crossing.So a tarin has to go all that way and past that signal,before another train can leave the signal just after Horsforth.Then after Rigton the next signal is at Hornbeam Park,just outside Harrogate.So once again another train cannot go past the signal at Rigton til the one infront has gone.This is the same in the opposite direction,and is the main reason why the service will never improve until its replaced by track circuit block signalling