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Posted: Wed 08 Dec, 2010 4:41 pm
Double post again..
Posted: Wed 08 Dec, 2010 4:44 pm
Engine in this context ( maps or documentary ) can mean any machine for doing "work". It can include winding or lifting machines for vertical or incline use, pumping machinery, stamps for reducing ores, buddles to separate fines, and any factory use one can think of. The term can even be applied to a manually or horse worked device, if substantial enough - such as a gin or whim/whin ( take your pick, depending on region ). The specific use would indicate a free-standing machine, or one in it's own dedicated building."Old" would infer disused, abandoned, or even "site of dismantled machinery", if engine bed or building remained.Off the top of my head, and without source, I would guess that Pit Hill would refer specifically to waste material, and that Coal Hill would identify useful material,or a source of such.
Posted: Mon 13 Dec, 2010 11:12 pm
OK time for some severe humble pie eating here ......... Jim’s memory was probably absolutely on the mark as it does appear that the Gosforth Pit probably did extended to the South East from Day Hole End.Jim earlier in the thread referred to extracts from the history of the Middleton Railway which referred to: Quote: an adit was driven into the hillside, mining an inferior, downward sloping coal seam. About 1400 yards from the entrance, the adit was opened out into a large cavern, from which a shaft was sunk to the main coal seam This is consistent with the desrcription given by John Holland in his work of 1835 "The history and description of fossil fuel, the collieries, and coal trade of Great Britain" Quote: The following interesting particulars relative to the working of the pits about Leeds, and from which the supplies of that important town are derived, have been kindly furnished by an intelligent friend, conversant with the details:—The Rev. R.H. Brandling's pits at Middleton, are three in number. 1. Day Hole, the entrance of which is on the side of a hill, and a subterraneous passage, of a very considerable length, is traversed, prior to the arriving at the drawing shaft. There are three qualities of coal; first, that which is called Deep Coal, and lies at the depth of one hundred and sixty or one hundred and seventy yards below the surface. The second quality is called Little Coal, which is got about forty yards below the top: these coals are not so bright as the deep coal, but they burn longer, and, consequently, are much used for engines, dye-houses, &c. The third quality is what is called, in Yorkshire, Sleck, being very small, and used principally for furnaces, founderies, and the hearths of black and whitesmiths, &c.—2. and 3. These are the Venture and West Pits ; the coals from them are considered durable, but leave a quantity of white sediment or ash in burning. Back to the Tithe Maps to identify the name of the owner at Middleton Ventur Pit. The tithe map shows the pit and the wagonway is recorded as Plot 172 which is owned by the Vicar of Leeds but occupied by Messers John Austin, William Rookes, Crompton Stansfield and John Spedding (presumably the trustees of the Middleton Estate)The tithe map also shows that that Plot 187 is owned by Messers John Austin, William Rookes, Crompton Stansfield and John Spedding. This ties in neatly with the coal pits and pump shown on the 1854 OS sheet to the immediate west of Sharp House.It is therefore safe(ish) to conclude that this shaft was used by the Middleton Collieries at some point for drainage and access.It is interesting to note however that Holland describes an adit following an inferior coal [presumably the Middleton 40 yard] before reaching a drawing shaft used to haul coal from workings below, presumably in the Middleton Main and Little and even the Beeston Coals.Now referring back to Jim's quotes: Quote: Work on the unusual Gosforth Pit was initiated in1818. The coal seam aimed at was not accessible by a conventional shaft, as the land above the seam did not belong to the Brandlings Going back to the Tithe Maps, it is interesting to note that much of the land in this area (for example all the plots to the west of Plot 187) were owned by the Reverend Richard Lucus (or probably more correctly Lucas).See http://tithemaps.leeds.gov.uk/TwinMaps. ... us!x.0This
represents a substantial holding in Middleton parish particularly when compared with the holdings of Messers John Austin, William Rookes, Crompton Stansfield and John SpeddingSee http://tithemaps.leeds.gov.uk/TwinMaps. ... RDP91_89At
first there does not seem to be a direct relationship with a Mr Armitage as referred to in the Second of Jim’s quotes. However a wee bit of googling reveals this document:http://fsd.lincolnshire.gov.uk/upload/p ... RT15.pdfIt
refers to the Lucas and Armytage (or Armitage) family specifically Quote: After the death of Joseph Armytage IV his estates passed to his sister Elizabeth who had married the Rev. Richard Lucas of Edith Weston in 1786. There follow two more Richards, the first of them also a clergyman, the second dying in 1888. Edith Weston is situated on the southern bank of the modern Rutland Water in the county of Rutland. The document goes on to state: Quote: Coal may well have been a source of part of the income of the Armytages. At various times in the eighteenth century they had leases of mines at Ossett, Kirkham Gate in Wakefield, East Ardsley and Middleton in the parish of Rothwell (4/A/7/2-5; r/17/4). I am confident that this is the same Armytage (Armitage) that operated the brickworks at Lofthouse and was intimately associated with the Leeds and Yorkshire Co-operative Coal Mining Co that operated Lofthouse Colliery in the later part of the nineteenth century. It appears, judging by references at the National Archives that there was an active relationship between the estate of Richard Lucas and J & J Charlesworth operators of the adjacent Robin Hood Colliery and Lofthouse Colliery (before the L&Y Co-op Mining Co) Why the Middleton Estate resorted to using a long drift to access reserves in the Middleton Main (and probably the Beeston) in the South East corner of the parish would require a detailed search through the remaining Estate Papers of the Middleton Estate and the Lucus (Lucas) Estate, the company records of J&J Charlesworth, the company records of Armitage Brickworks and the various records of Lofthouse & Robin Hood Colliery. I would suggest that Charlesworth and Armitage interest had hoped by denying surface access that they amy have formed a buffer in the workings of the Middleton Main and Beeston so that at their deeper workings at Lofthouse and Robin Hood Collieries in the same seam they did not need to pump the water generated by the extensive workings in Middleton Colliery. I am not convinced that the shaft and pump shown in the Tithe Map at Plot 187 is the Gosforth Pit but acknowledge it could be related to the workings of Middleton Colliery and is most likely sunk to the Middleton Main (I will explain shortly)
Posted: Mon 13 Dec, 2010 11:25 pm
It seemed a simple thing to do ........ type "Gosforth Pit" into google and look at the images. Blow me, I never expected to see:http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/3291315Scabs
operating pumps at Gosforth Pit, Leeds!I can only assume that the adit was retained for pumping purposes long into the Twentieth Century (which is logical as much of the workings in Middleton Broom pit was in the lower Beeston and Better Beds)
Posted: Mon 13 Dec, 2010 11:36 pm
A final offering for the evening!I had a root around some old books and came across the Tempus volume "Images of England - WEST YORKSHIRE COALFIELD" compiled by the great John Goodchild where I came across the attachment above which he describes as: Quote: Leeds from the head of the lower incline of the Middleton Colliery Railway, around 1840. The availabilty of coal was responsible for the possibilty of the development of the glassworks, pottery works, ironworks and textile works shown here in Hunslet
Posted: Tue 14 Dec, 2010 12:14 am
Brilliant research as ever Grumpytramp. Knocks my gut feeling and guesswork theories into a cocked hat. Forget the humble pie and treat yourself to the mince variety!I think that that should about wind things up on this subject - unless I have underestimated you yet again!
Posted: Tue 14 Dec, 2010 8:22 am
grumpytramp wrote: It seemed a simple thing to do ........ type "Gosforth Pit" into google and look at the images. Blow me, I never expected to see:http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/3291315Scabs
operating pumps at Gosforth Pit, Leeds!I can only assume that the adit was retained for pumping purposes long into the Twentieth Century (which is logical as much of the workings in Middleton Broom pit was in the lower Beeston and Better Beds) Storming stuff GT - The scabs picture is marvellous. The painting fom the incline is wonderful too, probably has some artistic license though as these all seem to have.The Tithe map site is brilliant as well opening up the early 1800's.Your deep clay pit on Jack Lane is marked on the OS maps of course, prior to that it's marked as a brick field.
Posted: Tue 14 Dec, 2010 9:13 am
This thread for me has been compulsive reading. As mentioned early in the thread I worked at Miggy in the 60's. Although the thread info is mainly 18th 19th century many of the names bring back memories. One in particular was In the Shaftsman's 'cubby 'ole' there was a varnished board about 5ft by 2ft hung on the wall. It listed all the seams/levels and depths etc. I haven't thought about that board for for nearly 50 years. Thanks to all the contributers and well done on producing such an interesting thread.
Posted: Tue 04 Jan, 2011 4:36 pm
Not really relevant to the specific subject but don't you think how wonderful it is to read narrative that uses words and locations that only Loiners know about (do kids today still use the same slang?).Phrases like Miggy Colliery or Miggy Clearings.or The Roman Wall. The Forge, Ups and Downs (or Beeston Bumps) and The Daisy Field (from the New Farnley threads) all were used in normal converstaion amongst kids in the 1950's and have been trotted out on here as if it were an everday thing to do. Absolutely priceless!!
Posted: Tue 04 Jan, 2011 6:41 pm
Jailhouse John wrote: Not really relevant to the specific subject but don't you think how wonderful it is to read narrative that uses words and locations that only Loiners know about (do kids today still use the same slang?).Phrases like Miggy Colliery or Miggy Clearings.or The Roman Wall. The Forge, Ups and Downs (or Beeston Bumps) and The Daisy Field (from the New Farnley threads) all were used in normal converstaion amongst kids in the 1950's and have been trotted out on here as if it were an everday thing to do. Absolutely priceless!! Yes the use then decline of slang or local words is fascinating. Being an Ossy (Osmondthorpe) born lad that might be why the term Miggy did take me a while to figure out it is Middleton (well I hope it is!).