Underground Mabgate.

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Sat 11 Sep, 2010 1:17 pm

Many thanks to Jim & Si for going to the trouble of uploading those maps for me. I'm most grateful, and i think you have solved the question for me as well.I must admit i hadn't known about that stream from Lupton avenue through Burmantofts. I can't find anymore about it. Infact i think it's either been diverted, or dried up altogether these days.I'm not sure-But it does look like the small stream was in the open for a short while just behind the Harp pub.I've marked in blue where it (seems to me) it ran in the open.I'm guessing the 'London works' clothing would have needed a water source for there business as well. It certainly lines up with the 'goit' or outfall into the Sheepscar beck under the Byron street mill area that i've seen. I've marked that area with an X.It's interesting to see the car park still follows the boundary of the above map as well.Cheers guys

The Parksider · Post by **The Parksider** » Sat 11 Sep, 2010 3:26 pm

Phill_dvsn wrote: I must admit i hadn't known about that stream from Lupton avenue through Burmantofts. I can't find anymore about it. Infact i think it's either been diverted, or dried up altogether these days.I'm not sure-But it does look like the small stream was in the open for a short while just behind the Harp pub.I've marked in blue where it (seems to me) it ran in the open.I'm guessing the 'London works' clothing would have needed a water source for there business as well. It certainly lines up with the 'goit' or outfall into the Sheepscar beck under the Byron street mill area that i've seen. Cheers guys I love maps so this has been great. I did a lot looking for the old streams of rural Leeds and the "Lupton Avenue" beck is a new one to add to the list. Well spotted on the map Phil and of course very interesting how old boundaries may give things away.Could a beck just dry up?? Chameleon is strong on the idea that wherever water has collected in the past it will continue to do so, block it one way it will find another.In Lady back was there an outflow of actual water from the outfall or goit you saw phil??Are you going to crawl up it to see where it come out?? LOLGoit is a great term that's not in the dictionary - it should be....

The Parksider · Post by **The Parksider** » Sat 11 Sep, 2010 3:41 pm

Si wrote: And this is Jim's 1835 Baines and Newsome map. Blue dots show side stream from Lupton Avenue. Jim, Phil and Si.....Try the 1850 OS map - seems to be a significant beck "Stoney Rock Beck" marked coming down from Harehills Lane, down stoney Rock Road. That's from the north east. Jims older map has the smaller beck running out east. On the 1850 map this seems to join Stoney rock beck around the Nippets.Looks big enough to have needed culverting?There is no sign of anything after the two join (development having started in this area by 1850), BUT as eagle eye davidson spots, it may have showed where it went under Mabgate.

jim · Post by **jim** » Sat 11 Sep, 2010 4:20 pm

Thinking about the land levels in the Torre Road area, there has always been a very noticeable valley from Lupton Avenue to the Mabgate area passing through the present-day junction of Beckett Street with Lincoln Green Road. The stream must in the past have been powerful or long-lasting enough to cut that valley. The lie of the land would compel rainwater to follow it still, so the stream must still exist underground, if only as a drainage sewer.

Post by **chameleon** » Sat 11 Sep, 2010 4:48 pm

jim wrote: Thinking about the land levels in the Torre Road area, there has always been a very noticeable valley from Lupton Avenue to the Mabgate area passing through the present-day junction of Beckett Street with Lincoln Green Road. The stream must in the past have been powerful or long-lasting enough to cut that valley. The lie of the land would compel rainwater to follow it still, so the stream must still exist underground, if only as a drainage sewer. More probably the case Jim, that the water simply found the lowest point/route though doubtless carved out a small, deeper chanel in its life.The land around the Torre Road Flyover does seem to be the natural high point in the area, thus a strem starting close by on the downthrow seems logical. as you suggest, it has probably been a more formal and enclosed sewer for some time - tha water collecting must always have somewhere to go - anything on your magic plans perhaps Cardie??

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Sat 11 Sep, 2010 5:37 pm

Well Parksider. It's hard to work out what it's purpose was really. All i can say it's like a large inlet room. It's pretty bleak in there. It looks to age back to Dicks day. Pretty medieval stuff!I'll get some better shots when i'm down again. But i'll upload these so you get a good idea of what it is.Notice how there doesn't appear to be a channel, or anywhere for the water to flow into the beck on that concrete floor with the big prop. The Orange glow is the outside of the tunnel where that dog leg section is.(You can see a groove that water has cut into the silt over the years, It just runs into the wall on the left really)There is a decent sized outflow portal at the far end, it does have a channel where the water would have flowed out, but it is full of silt up to a foot high. No water (or possibly a trickle) comes out these days. The funny thing is there is no channel, or course for it to flow into the Lady beck past the little room (Goit?)The area is marked with an X.It was certainly substantial in it's day. It would be good to find out it's purpose.

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Sat 11 Sep, 2010 5:53 pm

Infact i think my x should be a little higher up. Just where it says C.C.S(Or is it O.C.S)And does that inlet/goit look to have been in the open at one time from that map?The roof is concrete, so it would have been added much later i guess.Anyone got any deas what C.C.S (or O.C.S) would stand for on an old map?

Phill_dvsn · Post by **Phill_dvsn** » Sat 11 Sep, 2010 5:59 pm

C.C.S= culvert cross-section?Possibly?http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&sa ... =&gs_rfai=

jim · Post by **jim** » Sat 11 Sep, 2010 6:38 pm

CCS is centre of covered stream Phill.........

jim · Post by **jim** » Sat 11 Sep, 2010 7:05 pm

Looking at this thread again reinforces the idea that past industry was always at its most prevalent where water was freely available, whether it was for power or for process. This concept is exceptionally borne out within the area we are looking at, and it is probable that there will be connections of this type with the details that puzzle us.On a slightly off-topic note, does anyone know the reason why further up the beck in the Meanwood Road/Buslingthorpe Lane area there was such a preponderance of leather-related industry? I am sure there must be a reason or collection of reasons for this concentration of a single industry type, but can't see it for the life of me. The water is of course important, but I feel there must be more.I have a particular interest in that my paternal ancestors lived in the immediate area, and several of them worked in that group of trades.