Grey Walk, Hunslet.

The Parksider · Post by **The Parksider** » Fri 28 May, 2010 1:44 am

jim wrote: North Midland station in wrong place? The map predates the station, and also does not show Great Wilson Street. Presumably the cholera information ----and other info----has been superimposed on an earlier map. Another interesting point, the Middleon or Brandling's Railway is shown as cut short of it's original terminus at Casson Close, which was done, as far as I know, to allow the building of Great Wilson Street----but as I say, the street doesn't appear.The North Midland Railway was promoted,I believe, in 1835, first Act of Parliament 1836, others 1837, 1839, and subsequently, opened to traffic 1 July 1840. The station was further south than the later goods yard, at the southern end of Junction Street ( just where it turns west to meet Kidacre Street ), and was thus just east of where it is shown on the Cholera Map, on the other side of Brandling's Railway. From this I can only think that an original construction plan was to build the terminus on Meadow Road, and that the North Midland engineers--under George Stephenson himself, no less--had second thoughts. Perhaps the idea of a flat crossing with a rack-railway didn't appeal! All this allows for conjecture on the date(s) of the map. I leave that to someone else------my brain hurts! Thanks for that Jim. There is no railway, just a station and as you say that may have been allocated to be the station and plans changed.The Miggy Railway was cut short by Gt. Wilson street leaving the last bit of the original line to be called Coal Staith Rd or whatever. I am unsure of the exact site of Casson Close. Whilst it is said this was by the river, I doubt this as the point of the railway was to deliver coal to the town, not stick it back in the river.

jim · Post by **jim** » Fri 28 May, 2010 3:02 am

The Middleton Railway definitely never reached the river Parksider. Casson Close was somewhere at or between the areas of the Coal Staith Road and the South Market, but definitely not past the block of buildings between Harrison's Yard and North Row, which block ran right across without interruption from Meadow Lane to Hunslet Lane from at least 1770-- and probably earlier ( see Jeffrey's Plan of Leeds of that year ) until after the 1847 OS map. Giles map of 1815 shows the New Coal Staith as reaching Coal Staith Road, with the area where the South market was later built as "Brandling's Old Coal Staith"I believe the claims for the line reaching the river at Leeds Bridge stem from a misunderstanding of documents referring to the delivery of coal to "the river staiths", and that these actually refer to another wagon way that led from the colliery on the later Broom Pit site, across Woodhouse Hill to the river at Thwaite Gate. This was probably a horse operated wooden wagon way that closed around 1800, as the line to Leeds was where the profit lay! It would earlier have been regarded as profitable to ship down ( or even up ) stream via the Aire and Calder Navigation.Hope this clears things up a little ( or at least doesn't make them murkier than the Aire of the period! )

The Parksider · Post by **The Parksider** » Fri 28 May, 2010 10:32 am

jim wrote: The Middleton Railway definitely never reached the river Parksider. Casson Close was somewhere at or between the areas of the Coal Staith Road and the South Market, but definitely not past the block of buildings between Harrison's Yard and North Row, which block ran right across without interruption from Meadow Lane to Hunslet Lane from at least 1770-- and probably earlier ( see Jeffrey's Plan of Leeds of that year ) until after the 1847 OS map. Giles map of 1815 shows the New Coal Staith as reaching Coal Staith Road, with the area where the South market was later built as "Brandling's Old Coal Staith"I believe the claims for the line reaching the river at Leeds Bridge stem from a misunderstanding of documents referring to the delivery of coal to "the river staiths", and that these actually refer to another wagon way that led from the colliery on the later Broom Pit site, across Woodhouse Hill to the river at Thwaite Gate. This was probably a horse operated wooden wagon way that closed around 1800, as the line to Leeds was where the profit lay! It would earlier have been regarded as profitable to ship down ( or even up ) stream via the Aire and Calder Navigation.Hope this clears things up a little ( or at least doesn't make them murkier than the Aire of the period! ) Spot on as always Jim, the Miggy Railways own definitive history and I think the recent book on Miggy's old coal mines (lost it! temporarily) show the exact route of the main waggonway to Thwaite gate (which I must trace onto a later map) and other (less far reaching) waggonways of the 1700's in the woods which can now be traced as pathways.So much onus has been placed on the line to leeds older ways have been forgotten in the past. I suppose the irony is that what is mainly left of the Miggy Railway doesn't date back to 1758 at all.The bit either side of Jack Lane does though, and I always rate that bit, but no doubt in time it will be obliterated.

jim · Post by **jim** » Fri 28 May, 2010 11:34 am

Hi again Parksider, I believe that the top couple of hundred yards of the present day Middleton Railway is actually on the original 1758 alignment ( if not the original track, that,of course, was to a smaller gauge and of very different construction ). I recall superimposing several maps of different date back in the 1960s, and coming to the conclusion that a kink in the wall at the side of the line that separated the trackway of the original alignment as the later Old Run Road as extended along the dirt road to the colliery area, represented the coming-together of the two routes. The wall itself, constructed mainly of original Middleton Railway stone block sleepers went during the 1970s open-casting, but a lot of them went into the preservation society's first stone platform at Moor Road. I don't know if they were recycled yet again into the latest platform on it's current further south site.So, that bit at the Park Halt IS the oldest Statutory Railway in the world, and the first to successfully use steam locomotives in commercial service---even if the rest smacks somewhat of George Washington's pipe!

The Parksider · Post by **The Parksider** » Sat 29 May, 2010 12:37 pm

jim wrote: Hi again Parksider, I believe that the top couple of hundred yards of the present day Middleton Railway is actually on the original 1758 alignment ( if not the original track, that,of course, was to a smaller gauge and of very different construction ). I recall superimposing several maps of different date back in the 1960s, and coming to the conclusion that a kink in the wall at the side of the line that separated the trackway of the original alignment as the later Old Run Road as extended along the dirt road to the colliery area, represented the coming-together of the two routes. The wall itself, constructed mainly of original Middleton Railway stone block sleepers went during the 1970s open-casting, but a lot of them went into the preservation society's first stone platform at Moor Road. I don't know if they were recycled yet again into the latest platform on it's current further south site.So, that bit at the Park Halt IS the oldest Statutory Railway in the world, and the first to successfully use steam locomotives in commercial service---even if the rest smacks somewhat of George Washington's pipe! I'm lost Jim and the MRPS book does not help.The reason for the old run seems to be the railway came from Day Hole end at a higher level than the broom pit was later sunk. It follows the contours of the hill, the top of this being Windmill hill, before having to drop down an incline.Was it the case that once Broom was sunk at a lower level they simply ran the line from Broomon the flat all the way to Hunslet Moor. Is the "old run" actually from day hole end to the hunslet lake area?The MRPS map seems to show the incline to middleton rising up from Broom Pit and dates it 1827. The 1851-4 OS map (online on old maps) seems to show it rising up into Miggy from day hole end. Maybe there were two inclines running up to Middleton.The MRPS map also shows a 1758 line at the level of Broom. Were there more than two lines running at the southern end?

The Parksider · Post by **The Parksider** » Sat 29 May, 2010 2:09 pm

jim wrote: The wall itself, constructed mainly of original Middleton Railway stone block sleepers went during the 1970s open-casting I recall the tips being massive at Miggy. they aren't there now. The MRPS book refers to plans in 1977 to opencast new pit, removal of shale had gone ahead earlier the pit then being filled with rubbish - the shale going in the motorways. Then the main pit heap was "removed" but it doesn't say where. The Broom site was "levelled" using "baled compacted refuse"!!

jim · Post by **jim** » Sun 30 May, 2010 12:27 am

Hi Parksider,I've only just seen your messages, I've had a day off travelling to Gatwick and back. I'll do my best to unravel what was going on when Brandling's Railway was built, and it's later alterations for you.Firstly, the incline up to the Middleton plateau and it's branches to West Pit, and to Thorpe Lane from that branch do not concern us. They were built in the period after 1821,were not locomotive worked, and were not part of the statutory railway." Dayhole End" was a general name for the area at the end of the valley around and just to the south of Broom Pit ,terminating where the railway line immediately west of Broom Pit finishes. The "dayhole" itself---a drift mine ,the portal still surviving into the 1960s----lay to the west of the "incline 1821-1968" shown on the MRT History map,roughly adjacent to the"1968". The dotted line shown to the east of Broom Pit, apparently reaching nearly to Middleton Park Road is new to me ( until last weekend I had only a copy of the 2nd edition of the MRT History! ) and I have no idea of it's provenance---my recollection of the area suggests it might have been viable if a Snowden Mountain Railway had been provided for it, but stand to be corrected.The !758 Brandling's Railway ran on two "levels" and one "incline". That incline is what the straight section of the present Old Run Road between Moor Road and West Grange Drive is now. The word "run" in this context referred to the act of using a rope-worked incline, and also to a set of wagons being lowered on such an incline.The two "levels" therefore were from the Casson Close staiths to the incline foot, and from the incline head to the colliery. When the section from roughly Tunstall Road to the "B" of Belle Isle Hamlet ( as shown on the MRT History map ) was replaced by the 1875 diversion, built to allow through locomotive working and thus render redundant the costly to operate incline, the remaining unused section of the southern level survived as a trackway. The section beyond the Rosedale/West Grange estate had the wall I referred to in my previous post on it's western side. The term "level" does not refer to absolute horizontalism, but is merely as opposed to an "incline".My contention as to the section of original 1758 alignment still in use by the preservation society refers to that between the"B" and the Park Halt.I hope this better explains what I was talking about, but anyone should feel free to question or argue with my position.

The Parksider · Post by **The Parksider** » Tue 08 Jun, 2010 12:21 am

jim wrote: I hope this better explains what I was talking about, but anyone should feel free to question or argue with my position. Hi Jim, if you are up for it switch to the Miggy Railway thread!!

jim · Post by **jim** » Tue 08 Jun, 2010 10:54 am

Oops, sorry Hats Off! We seem to have hijacked your thread. We will fold up our tents like the Arabs.................

jim · Post by **jim** » Tue 08 Jun, 2010 11:07 am

Oops again.