A very old Establishment down the Skulls head yard (Part 1)

Chrism · Post by **Chrism** » Wed 04 Nov, 2009 4:19 pm

In reply to Phils Q on page 1. I don't know if this has been posted on here, I'm not trawling through nearly 100 pages, but I spotted this on Leodis today.

Si · Post by Si » Wed 04 Nov, 2009 4:36 pm

Yes Chris, this pic has been posted before on this thread. It also appears in the book "Images of Leeds."Interestingly, it has been retouched. If you click on it to enlarge, look closely at the roof. There is a structure of metal bars which held a large "Gelders" sign made of gilded letters. This has been "air-brushed" out where it appeared against the sky, but you can still see remains of it against the chimney stacks. Part of the G is on the centre chimney, and parts of the L and D are on the right hand one. I wonder why someone went to all this trouble? PS Was it a particularly Leeds thing, but lots of pictures from around this period show over-large street numbers elaborately painted on the walls?

Chrism · Post by **Chrism** » Wed 04 Nov, 2009 5:04 pm

OK. Ta. I noticed that (dodgy) air brushing too. Very strange.

Si · Post by Si » Sun 27 Dec, 2009 11:50 pm

chameleon wrote: I've put this in another thread but it feels as though a copy has a place here too:Any one remember this? You can never be sure with these publications but I took a chance on this - it arrived today and I'm certainly not disappointed!A vast collection of pictures, mostly of the city centre, both old and new.Only had chance for a quick skeg - seems it's for Santa to bring and it's already gone up the chimelenmyWhat I did see was a colour photograph showing clearly where our two petrified friends once lived and another picture from 1931 looking from the Vicar Lane end which shows all the old buildings still in place. I's not a pristine image but given the time period, it's not bad.Remember the conjecture about the end wall which had been altered? Well, one suspicion was right - between the pitched roof and the flat roof adjacent to the skulls is a very large chimney stack, confirms what was thought, about a fire in there so, could it have been the Black Smith associated with stables? Have you opened your pressie, yet, Chameleon? We await enlightenment!

Post by **chameleon** » Mon 28 Dec, 2009 11:27 am

Hi SI, yes Santa has been, I just hope a closer look now doesn't show me to be mistaken but whatever, it is certainly still an image worth adding.I have a couple of other things to contend with at the moment too, so please bear with me for a while

Si · Post by Si » Mon 28 Dec, 2009 5:14 pm

chameleon wrote: Hi SI, yes Santa has been, I just hope a closer look now doesn't show me to be mistaken but whatever, it is certainly still an image worth adding.I have a couple of other things to contend with at the moment too, so please bear with me for a while Breath bated.

LS1 · Post by **LS1** » Mon 28 Dec, 2009 11:44 pm

I think we've touched on this before, however I was driving past where the old Chained Bull was this afternoon which is now the extended car park for M&S. On the wall there is a sort of carved bull in the brickwork that is obviously done to commemorate what was there before. Now I know Cnosni has alluded to the chancel that was nearby in the 13th century (if I remember correctly) but, it made me think were the skulls placed there to commemorate somthing that was there before the pub on this site. I'm not referning to the soldiers story but as I say, what was there before the pub.I cant rememeber if this has been discussed before so sorry if so but, pre cloth hall days, etc do we know what buildingas were there in the 17th century or before?

Si · Post by Si » Tue 29 Dec, 2009 8:46 am

I think it was a tenter field between the back of Kirkgate, running down to the river, Lee. A place where new cloth pieces were stretched out on "tenter-hooks" to dry after finishing. It's mentioned in a post on this thread in relation to the building of the first White Cloth Hall, ISTR. On the 1847 big scale OS map, the site of Kirkgate Market, roughly opposite the skulls yard, is marked, "The Vicars Croft or Free Market (cattle, hay, vegetables, &c.) Site of the Vicarage. Site of the Chantry of Thomas Clavell, vicar of Leeds, AD1450" - I think. The type is very small black-letter. What exactly was a chantry? Did they have an associated burial ground? Like Cnosni, I think this, and the nearby old Parish Church, are likely sources of the skull carving.

Post by **cnosni** » Tue 29 Dec, 2009 4:45 pm

Si wrote: I think it was a tenter field between the back of Kirkgate, running down to the river, Lee. A place where new cloth pieces were stretched out on "tenter-hooks" to dry after finishing. It's mentioned in a post on this thread in relation to the building of the first White Cloth Hall, ISTR. On the 1847 big scale OS map, the site of Kirkgate Market, roughly opposite the skulls yard, is marked, "The Vicars Croft or Free Market (cattle, hay, vegetables, &c.) Site of the Vicarage. Site of the Chantry of Thomas Clavell, vicar of Leeds, AD1450" - I think. The type is very small black-letter. What exactly was a chantry? Did they have an associated burial ground? Like Cnosni, I think this, and the nearby old Parish Church, are likely sources of the skull carving. A chantry chapel was usually a place to offer a prayer,rather than a place where mass was held,though im sure there would have been some exceptions.Some chantrys were paid for and built to commemorate someone,which could have been the benefactor or anyone important to the benefactor.Henry V had a chantry built for Richard II.He paid for daily prayers to be said for Richards soul.Richard had been deposed as king by Henry Bolingbroke,who took the crown fro himself and became Hery VI,and was father of the future Henry V.Richard "died" whilst imprisoned by Bolingbroke in Pontefract Castle,the country believed he had been murdered.The building of the Chantry for Richard by Henry V was to try and make amends for what his father had done,which was regicideChantry Chapels were also placed at particular points where prayers could be said before setting off on a journey,which in those days would be understandable.The Chantry chapel of Thomas Clavell/Cavell in Leeds was one of a number of Chapels that were located at various points around Leeds.One was on Leeds Bridge,St Marys Chapel.There was one on the corner of Vicar Lane and Lady Lane,called Lady Chapel (hence Lady Lane).This was next to the North Bar stone.There was also one at the top of Briggate,where Burtons is now,called Sir William Eures Chapel.From Illustrated History of Leeds:-"There were also chantry chapels scattered around the town.On the North side of the bridge was St Marys chantry chapel for the use of travellers.Another was built on Vicar Lane (Lady Chapel).The fashion continued into the sixteenth century.By his will dated William Eure, Vicar of Leeds,left money for the construction of a chantry and further funds to support a priest,who besides ministering the alter,was to 'pray and keep a yearly obit of 7's.to be distributed for teh Weal [benefit] of the soul of the founder'and had to serve in the choir at divine service on festivals and holy days"I would assume that Thomas Clavell/Cavells would have been the same type as William Eure's

Steve Jones · Post by **Steve Jones** » Tue 29 Dec, 2009 11:20 pm

the chantry was covered way back in this thread.I too think it likely as a source for the skulls and have asked before for anyone to look at the papers around the time of the market being built in case there might be a reference we missed.the only time I tried doing this in the reference library,I couldn't get any of the microfilm readers to let me thread the film to read it!