White Horse Farm, York Road, Osmondthorpe/

Post by **tyke bhoy** » Thu 29 Sep, 2011 3:43 pm

Can I just echo Si on that one Bruno. You certainly haven't outstayed your welcome and please keep on posting even if its another request for help on AE Sunter. Its one I wouldn't be much help on but we do have a number of family history experts who visit and contribute regulalry. (Where is CNOSNI btw?)Your initial query has opened up a lot of interesting information on that particular area of Leeds to all the current users of SL and will hopefully be around for a long time to help future searchers. It's amazing how often one or more SL threads pop up on a Google search (other Search engines are available ) about aspects of Leeds.

uncle mick · Post by **uncle mick** » Thu 29 Sep, 2011 6:46 pm

Anyway, it seems Nelly was a Sunter by marriage (Quote)It appears that Nellie (Nee Carney) married Albert Edward Sunter in Leeds in 1909.Albert Edward (Dob 1883) was a brother of Horace Sunter.You can find him in the 1901 Census living with some of his brothers and sisters (transcribed as Lunter)I wonder if Albert Edward Sunter is AE Sunter as seen on Leodis

uncle mick · Post by **uncle mick** » Thu 29 Sep, 2011 6:58 pm

Just noticed that the address given for A E Sunter (Grocer) on Leodis is the same address that is in the Phone Book for N Sunter (Newsagent/Stationer) 356 York RoadQuite a little empire

Post by **chameleon** » Thu 29 Sep, 2011 7:26 pm

BRUNO -Sunter rang a bell, I mentioned it to Mrs Chameleon who is the 'keeper' of our family history.Seems Horace Sunter married into my family, the Dobsons of old Seacroft. She has some data which may be of interest to you. I'll ask her to get it together to post here, or/and you can email me directly if you wish (address is in my profile)later edit:I've been presented with this little piece from Mrs C. to offer you - it does include info already found and posted by others but tries to pull it together with some additional suff. I gather a dtumbling block id verifying which one is Teddy. Hope this might be of interest in some way.--------------------------------------Horace Sunter, born around 1875 in Halton, Leeds. Died aged 70 in 1935, buried in Harehills Cemetary, Leeds with wife Edith (Edith Win Pugh).The headstone is still quite legible. They married in Leeds in December quarter 1895.Horace was the son of George and May or Mary (nee Clarkson who was born about 1842 in Whitkirk, Leeds). They had Oliver (1868/9), Florence (1870), William (1874), Sophia (1875) Horace (1875), Moses (187, Myra (1880), Albert (1881) and Joshua (1885). All dates approx.George Sunter was the son of John Sunter, christened 28 July 1793 in Pateley Bridge and Margaret (nee Greenhough). Buried 13 March 1829 in Whitkirk, Leeds. At his son George’s christening in 1821 he is shown as a labourer of Halton.John Sunter and Margaret had William James Sunter (1824), who is related to my ancestors – have a photo of him and his wife Harriott Ely when they are probably in their 40s/50s), George (1821), John Moses (18230, Sarah Ann (1827) and Maraget Sunter (182.John Sunter was the son of George Sunter and Nancy Coates.On the 1901 census, Ancestry has Horace Sunter indexed as Hence Sunter. The family are living at Broomhill Cotts, York Road, next door to White Horse Farm (where the Wilks lived in 1901). Horace is a colliery store keeper and they have two children, Florence Hannah Elizabeth Sunter aged 4 and Edith Ellen Sunter age unclear! There is another farm listed after the Broomhill address (possibly Hill Farm, York Road) then comes Halton Dial on York Road (which is where the Selby Road splits off from the current York Road (A64)), then Osmandthorpe Lodge and Osmondthorpe Lane. A description of the Enumeration District for 1901 reads: ‘All that is southerly of the Leeds and York, and Leeds and Selby Roads, commencing at and including Maltkiln Cottage (and farm?) continuing to Wyke Beck including Osmondthorpe Terrace, White Horse Inn, Terrace and Cottages, Broomhill Farm and (cottages ?) to Osmondthorpe Lane and Halton Dial House …………’Just to confuse matters further, the 1908 map does indeed show Broomhill Farm but it also shows Broom Hill (with a collection of buildings) further east and to the north of York Road of the area covered on Si’s map. The enumerator’s ‘walk’ doesn’t really help here as it clearly states that the District is south of York Road which then wouldn’t include either Broom Hill Farm of the buildings further north at Broom Hill!Albert Edward Sunter married Nellie Carney April to June 1909 in Leeds.Edwin Sunter was born in Leeds in 1917 (a death entry for 11 June 1917 in Leeds could be the same child, the register shows him as aged 5 years) and George W Sunter was born in 1911 to Albert and Nellie Sunter. An Edwin Sunter married Minnie Worsnop in Leeds Mar Q 1948. An Edwin M Sunter was born in December Q 1948 in Leeds, mothers maiden name was Smithson. An Edwin M D Sunter married a Diane M Perkins Dec Q 1984National Probate Calendar (index of Wills etc.) Albert Edward Sunter of 649 York Road, Leeds, died 2 Jan 1941 at 356 York Road. Administration Llandudno 19 Feb to Nellie Sunter, Widow. Effects £218 - 19s - 4d.

grumpytramp · Post by **grumpytramp** » Fri 30 Sep, 2011 10:05 am

chameleon wrote: A description of the Enumeration District for 1901 reads: ‘All that is southerly of the Leeds and York, and Leeds and Selby Roads, commencing at and including Maltkiln Cottage (and farm?) continuing to Wyke Beck including Osmondthorpe Terrace, White Horse Inn, Terrace and Cottages, Broomhill Farm and (cottages ?) to Osmondthorpe Lane and Halton Dial House …………’Just to confuse matters further, the 1908 map does indeed show Broomhill Farm but it also shows Broom Hill (with a collection of buildings) further east and to the north of York Road of the area covered on Si’s map. The enumerator’s ‘walk’ doesn’t really help here as it clearly states that the District is south of York Road which then wouldn’t include either Broom Hill Farm of the buildings further north at Broom Hill! I think we are getting close here.I have had a look at Kelly direcctory of 1888, where it usefully describes the properties (predominately business and commercial premises) along York Road in order (north and south side seperately See http://www.historicaldirectories.orgIn the vicinity of York Road in the vicinity of Osmonthrope Lane lsited in order are:White Horse Hotel, Henry Ibbotson(Osmondthorpe Terrace)Herod Otty, Coal Agent and Contractor (White Horse Farm)Hird, Dawson & Hardy, colliery proprietors and ironmasters (Osmonthrope collieries)George Foster, Mining EngineerHenry Greenhaugh, Underground Viewer (Osmondthorpe Yard)Alfred Thomas Walker, cowkeeper (Broomhill)(Osmondthorpe Lane)Referring to Si's extracted map above; Hird, Dawson & Hardy are clearly the occupier of the yard at the top of the incline from Osmondthorpe Colliery and therefore it would be logical to conclude that the next building west is White Horse Farm (which the map hints is split in half). It would be logical also to assume that Broomhill Cottage is the building referenced as Broomhill (occupied by Alfred Walker) directly opposite Broom Hill Farm.

Bruno · Post by **Bruno** » Fri 30 Sep, 2011 3:13 pm

Oh my word! What a wealth of information.Firstly, Chameleon and Mrs Chameleon, what can I say? Thanks so much, that's fantastic information you've provided, I'll definitely get in touch with you directly once I've taken it all in.Thanks Uncle Mick, you've confirmed my guess that AE was one of Horace's brothers. I can see that I'm going to have to cough up for some more credits on the census websites and do some proper research of my own. I wonder if Nelly changed the shop from a grocers to a newsagent/sweetshop when AE died? Perhaps the business was suffering from competition from the Co-op which was very nearby on York Road (near Ivy Street as far as I remember, it may even still be there?).Thanks Grumptytramp, that's some more great detective work. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that White Horse Farm was on the Southern side of York Road, which matches the claim my grandma made right back in the original post on this thread, and which rules out my theory about it being the same place as Broom Hill Farm? When you wrote "it would be logical to conclude that the next building west is White Horse Farm", is that a typo, did you mean east rather than west? If not, I'm confused about exactly which building you refer to, can you describe for me in very simple terms which buildings on the map you mean?And to think I wasn't going to post any more on this subject......

grumpytramp · Post by **grumpytramp** » Fri 30 Sep, 2011 5:42 pm

Bruno wrote: If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that White Horse Farm was on the Southern side of York Road, which matches the claim my grandma made right back in the original post on this thread, and which rules out my theory about it being the same place as Broom Hill Farm? When you wrote "it would be logical to conclude that the next building west is White Horse Farm", is that a typo, did you mean east rather than west? If not, I'm confused about exactly which building you refer to, can you describe for me in very simple terms which buildings on the map you mean? The easiest way to explain my interpration is to refer to a marked up version of Si's map I have attached (directory dated 1888; comparing Si's map with the 1891 OS map shows that in the subsequent couple of decades there is not that much difference between the White Horse Inn and Osmondthorpe Lane except in the vicinity of the White Horse Inn)I am not sure of the exact location of Osmondthorpe Terrace, though Google Maps puts it to jus to the east of the White Horse Inn?It does tie it in neatly with Gars21 comment regard "White Horse Field" in the tithe maps Bruno wrote: And to think I wasn't going to post any more on this subject...... Once in you'll end up hooked!

Bruno · Post by **Bruno** » Fri 30 Sep, 2011 5:58 pm

Thanks and apologies Grumpytramp, it was my mistake about the east/west thing, in my hurry to read through it all I misunderstood what you said.Thanks for the map, I see exactly what you mean now, and I think that puts an end to my previous theory that White Horse Farm was Broom HIll Farm by an alternative name. The Kelly's directory you refer to is the only mention we've seen so far of White Horse Farm apart from the census, and seems to place it definitively South of York Road, doesn't it.I hardly dare mention this, but I notice on your map that the next building is marked "Alfred Thomas Walker, Cowkeeper, Broomhill".My grandma married Harry Walker, I don't know where they met - did she marry the boy next door I wonder?You're absolutely right, I'm getting hooked already.

Bruno · Post by **Bruno** » Fri 30 Sep, 2011 6:13 pm

I've just tried as best I can to overlay Grumpytramp's map onto the current satellite picture on Google Earth (surprising to see that York Road appears to have been just about as wide then as it is now), and that places White Horse Farm at the end of what is now Dawlish Street, adjacent to the disused petrol Station. Home at last!Have we achieved closure here?

Post by **chameleon** » Fri 30 Sep, 2011 6:26 pm

Bruno wrote: I've just tried as best I can to overlay Grumpytramp's map onto the current satellite picture on Google Earth (surprising to see that York Road appears to have been just about as wide then as it is now), and that places White Horse Farm at the end of what is now Dawlish Street, adjacent to the disused petrol Station. Home at last!Have we achieved closure here? .......it never ends Bruno, Mrs C stated on this over 20 years ago and is still digging. Things have certainly shanged over those years - no google, google earth, on line maps, past and precent, no somputerised data bases of family records, - al lwas done the hard way trawling libraries and archives, sending off money for certificates and searching disused graveyards - funny lot family historians if you think about it too hard