A very old Establishment down the Skulls head yard (Part 1)

[Si]

Unfortunately, the Haunted Leeds book does not give a date - it just says "during the days of the press gangs." However, it does mention that "the property went across Kirkgate." It then mentions how the recruits died and "the event was commemorated by placing two carved stone skulls on the wall of the inn." It then tells the story of "the King's shilling."That's about it, Cnosni.The skulls don't look like they were carved specifically for this event to me, either, but it's all speculation.

[cnosni]

Si wrote: Unfortunately, the Haunted Leeds book does not give a date - it just says "during the days of the press gangs." However, it does mention that "the property went across Kirkgate." It then mentions how the recruits died and "the event was commemorated by placing two carved stone skulls on the wall of the inn." It then tells the story of "the King's shilling."That's about it, Cnosni.The skulls don't look like they were carved specifically for this event to me, either, but it's all speculation. Wikipedia has this about Impressment,or Press Gangs"Impressment (colloquially, "the Press" or "press-ganging") is the act of conscripting people to serve in the military or navy, usually by force and without notice. It was used by the Royal Navy, beginning in 1664, during the 18th century and early 19th century, in time of war as a means of crewing warships, although legal sanction for the practice goes back to the time of King Edward I. The Royal Navy impressed many British merchant sailors, as well as some sailors from other nations. People liable to impressment were eligible men of seafaring habits between the ages of 18 and 55 years, though very rarely non-seamen were impressed as well. If they believed that they were impressed unfairly, pressed men were able to submit appeals to the Admiralty, and those appeals were often successful. The navy had little interest in impressing people who were not ordinary or able seamen, since they would be of no use on board a ship.""Impressment was strongly criticised by those who believed it to be contrary to the British constitution — unlike many of its continental rivals, Britain did not conscript its subjects for any other military service aside from a brief experiment with army impressment in 1778–80, and the public opposed conscription in general — but as impressment was deemed vital to the strength of the navy and, by extension, to the survival of the realm, it was repeatedly upheld by the courts. The impressment of seamen from American ships caused serious tensions between Britain and the United States in the years leading up to the War of 1812. After the defeat of Napoleon in 1814, Britain ended the practice and never resumed it."More detailed account of impressment for the army"Starting in 1645, the New Model Army raised by Oliver Cromwell to overthrow Charles I during the English Civil War was largely manned by impressment.[1] After the restoration of the monarchy, impressment into the army was discontinued.During the American Revolutionary War, after the losses at the Battle of Saratoga and the apprehended hostilities with France, the existing voluntary enlistment measures were judged to be insufficient. Between 1775 and 1781 the regular army increased from 48,000 to 110,000. Two acts were passed, the Recruiting Act 1778 and the Recruiting Act 1779 for the impression of individuals into the British Army.[5] The chief advantages of these acts was in the number of volunteers brought in under the apprehension of impressment. To avoid impressment, some recruits incapacitated themselves by cutting off the thumb and forefinger of the right hand.[6] The Recruiting Act of 1779 was repealed on May 26, 1780, and army impressment was permanently discontinued.During the experiment, the British government allowed army impressment under severely restricted circumstances — both acts emphasised volunteering over impressment, and offered strong incentives to volunteers. The impressment portion of the 1778 act applied only to Scotland and the area around London, excluding Wales and the rest of England to avoid interfering with harvesting; the 1779 act applied to all of Great Britain, but was initially suspended everywhere except the area around London, and actually applied to all of Great Britain for only six months until the 1779 act as repealed in May 1780 and army impressment ceased in Britain.[2]Unlike naval impressment, army impressment applied only to "able-bodied idle, and disorderly Persons, who could not, upon Examination, prove themselves to exercise and industriously follow some lawful Trade or Employment, or to have some Substance sufficient for their Support and Maintenance" as well as smugglers according to the 1778 law, but excluding from that any men who were voters or harvest workers. The 1779 law extended impressment also to "incorrigible rogues" who had abandoned their families and left them as expenses on the parish.[3] Impressed apprentices were released under appeal from their masters, and impressed foreigners were released when requested by their countries' embassies"So impressment for the army was only 1778-1780,the naval pressment ended by 1814,and any way it would appear that Naval impressment would not have been an isuue in Leeds.Also considering that Naval impressment was over quite some time then for the book to say "during the days of the press gangs." would be too broad a period of history to be of any benefit to the reader or researcher to be able to judge when it occured.So if the book is correct then this would indicate the soldiers did die before the demolition of the church in 1838,and ,judging by the front of the property that the skulls were on,before its construction.However,thats not to say that the rear of the building,and the hayloft,of which we can see still appears to be there through the evidence of the stairs and the door,could not have been from an earlier structure,which was embellished in Victorian times at the front.Certainly by the time of 1838 the soldiers would have been dead for 40 years,and their death would certainly not only be known as a local event from the recent past but also a living memory from those alive at the time of the incident.I might take a look in the Leeds PR for the time 1778-1780,see if there is mention of the deaths.Incidents such as this do appear in the notes of the parish registers,or have been added in to the printed transcript by the Thoresby society,ive seen lots of addendums on these transcript sgiving little stories of local happenings at the time that the register is from.Just a matter of finding the time to get down there.

[Forgetful Cat]

Fromhttp://homepage.ntlworld.com/duncan.mcfarlane2/songs.htmBed of Straw (D.McFarlane)In the Yorkshire Evening Post publication 'Memory Lane Volume Two' I saw a photo of two skulls and read theaccompanying paragraph which stated....‘In Crown Court, an alleyway between Kirkgate and the Corn Exchange in Leeds there are two stone skulls sethigh on a wall of a former stable. These are to commemorate two men who were press ganged (crimped) intothe army at the time of the Peninsula war (1803-14). They were locked overnight in a stable where they sank,all too comfortably, into a bed of straw and suffocated’. Further research revealed….They were asphyxiated by the ammonia gas given off by the rotting hay and the military authorities had theskulls carved and placed on the building “pour encourager les autres”The stone skulls, once on the walls on Ion Dyson Ltd, were removed in 1974 when the firm moved toBuslingthorpe and they incorporated them in the wall there – two miles out – and to rather an inappropriatesetting and location in my opinion! You revellers, drink your beer rally round, come listen to meCome over and lend an ear it’s all of a bed of strawTwo travellers came to town rally round, come listen to meIn a tavern did sit down by the fire to keep warmCh. God bless this army, God bless this warGod bless the sergeant for he gave ‘em a bed of strawTo Leeds they came that day rally round, come listen to meLookin’ for work, somewhere to stay, hungry and weary and coldSuddenly up a shout rally round, come listen to meHurry on boys ‘Crimpers’ about , some of ‘em comin’ this wayJump up boys, it’s time to go rally round, come listen to meThe sergeant says ‘You’ve been too slow, we’re lookin’ for fellas like you.We need you in foreign lands rally round, come listen to meHe’s pressed a shillin’ into their ‘ands, nothin’ these fellas could doFrom Kirkgate they were marched a-right rally round, come listen to meLocked in a stable for the night, all on a bed of strawThey left ‘em with ale and bread rally round, come listen to meSays Jack ‘At least we’re warm and fed, the King’ll take care of us now’Mornin’ come they found ‘em there rally round, come listen to meThey’d sunk right in, were lost for air, all in a bed of strawNow high on a wall is found rally round, come listen to meTwo skulls of stone starin’ down, look for a bed of straw

[Forgetful Cat]

I agree with those who say that the tale of the 'bed of straw' has the feeling of something made up to explain something that was already there. I suspect we'll never trace the origins of the skulls, but I do wonder if putting them on a building had any connection with the West Yorkshire tradition of mounting stone heads on buildings. A couple of references below - if you want to explore the subject in detail I recommend John Billingsley's book 'Stony Gaze'. http://archive.thisisbradford.co.uk/199 ... rmhead.htm

[cnosni]

Clearly a strong traditional tale of the two men,who appear to have unwittngly taken the kings shilling,so not actually "Pressed" as in the term press ganged,but they had had the shilling pressed into their hand,which in those days was as good as signing the dotted line to say I Join up!So now the era is 1803-1814,as opposed to 1778-1780,and they werent actually soldiers as such,merely hapless recruits.Still,if the military HAD commisioned the skulls to be carved at the time then it was either a very poor carving,or it has been under a constant stream of running water,thus making it wear away so much!This wear and tear is hard to be accounted for ,even on a building thats early Victorian.As someone has already pointed out the alleyway itself offers good protection from high exposure,and i still hold the belief that the skulls are much much older than the early 19th century.Perhaps a line to the YAS may also be worth a punt.

[cnosni]

Message sent to the YAS,dont worry Geordie-Exile,it was without any hint of Shandy!!

[LS1]

Why would anyone even bother to put skulls up? they were obviously not important people if they were "pressganged", and in those days taking the time to carve these would have been relatively expensive and time consuming. Why would there be a memorial, and why would it be skulls?I know the victorians were more macarbe than we are now, but does a dual skull like that symbolise anything else?

[LS1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_(symbolism)Dunno if this is of relevence?

[Si]

Fascinating stuff, everyone. Nothing like a good mystery!

[Si]

I think your church theory still stands up, Cnosni. If the two recruits died during the Peninsular War, then now would be an ideal time to return the skulls, as it's their bicentenary (give or take a couple of years.)