A very old Establishment down the Skulls head yard (Part 1)

[cnosni]

Si wrote: Brandy wrote: Phill_d wrote: drapesy wrote: Phill_d wrote: This is all fascinating stuff. So they weren't actually on the pub then? Even the fella who wrote the book Haunted Leeds didn't know what happened to them. I think its hard to say where the pub actually was Phill. The wall the skulls were on is/was old and could have had various uses/owners over the years. I think the skulls were somewhere here; Ok Drapsey. Thanks for that. Well i'm always under the impression the pub was the old chippy. It would be worth having a look in that old yard. I wonder if the food girl will open again up for another nosey round the back passage lol      ROTFL "nosey round the back passage" OOOOOOOOERRR MISSUShave we any idea who actually carved these sculls phill?     Do we know when the deaths occured? If it's when there were press-gangs I guess we're looking at 1700s/early 1800s. If so, the carved skulls look a lot older than that to me IMHO. A wild shot in the dark, but what if they originally came from Kirkstall Abbey, or a cemetery? Just thought I'd toss that into the maelstrom of speculation.     Si, i had come to the same thought myself.Clearly the weathering on these skulls is centuries old,older than that of these 19th century buildings.So i was thinking about where they COULD have come from.Death is obviuosly the prevailing subject of these skulls,and a trip around very old churchs have examples of rich peoples tombs decorated with images of shulls,cadavers etc.It was a way of reminding the living that they too would one day "return to dust",and this trend seems to have started in England from around the 14th century,following the black death.It continued for some time,and if you go in the parish church you will see examples of such ghastly carvings on the salvaged tombs of Elizebethan notables that were saved from the Medieval church when it was demolished for the new church in the 1830s.This is where i suspect thhe skulls could be from.They were situated in a victorian brick built building,and could well have been saved from the demolition of the old church.The wear and tear on the heads is from rain and wind,so if they were associated with the church then they were on the outside.Whether they were from a tomb or the church itself is open to debate,but i would say that they look like that they would be more likely to be from the church itself,as the heads are clearly carved from a block of stone,which is more indicative of use in a building rather than a tomb.Further to this elaborate tombs/memorials for the wealthy were usually inside the church,where it was far more desirable to be interred for the well at heel.Tombs/gravestones as we know them now seem to have been a late 17th/early 18th century phenomenom.So,all in all,taking into account the weathering on the skulls and how long they must have been exposed to the elements to get in such a state,and the probable time that they were place in the wall in the yard then its quite possible that the heads were some sort of adornment of the Medieval parish church.If so then they are even more important than at first thought.

[LS1]

cnosni wrote: Si wrote: Brandy wrote: Phill_d wrote: drapesy wrote: Phill_d wrote: This is all fascinating stuff. So they weren't actually on the pub then? Even the fella who wrote the book Haunted Leeds didn't know what happened to them. I think its hard to say where the pub actually was Phill. The wall the skulls were on is/was old and could have had various uses/owners over the years. I think the skulls were somewhere here; Ok Drapsey. Thanks for that. Well i'm always under the impression the pub was the old chippy. It would be worth having a look in that old yard. I wonder if the food girl will open again up for another nosey round the back passage lol      ROTFL "nosey round the back passage" OOOOOOOOERRR MISSUShave we any idea who actually carved these sculls phill?     Do we know when the deaths occured? If it's when there were press-gangs I guess we're looking at 1700s/early 1800s. If so, the carved skulls look a lot older than that to me IMHO. A wild shot in the dark, but what if they originally came from Kirkstall Abbey, or a cemetery? Just thought I'd toss that into the maelstrom of speculation.     Si, i had come to the same thought myself.Clearly the weathering on these skulls is centuries old,older than that of these 19th century buildings.So i was thinking about where they COULD have come from.Death is obviuosly the prevailing subject of these skulls,and a trip around very old churchs have examples of rich peoples tombs decorated with images of shulls,cadavers etc.It was a way of reminding the living that they too would one day "return to dust",and this trend seems to have started in England from around the 14th century,following the black death.It continued for some time,and if you go in the parish church you will see examples of such ghastly carvings on the salvaged tombs of Elizebethan notables that were saved from the Medieval church when it was demolished for the new church in the 1830s.This is where i suspect thhe skulls could be from.They were situated in a victorian brick built building,and could well have been saved from the demolition of the old church.The wear and tear on the heads is from rain and wind,so if they were associated with the church then they were on the outside.Whether they were from a tomb or the church itself is open to debate,but i would say that they look like that they would be more likely to be from the church itself,as the heads are clearly carved from a block of stone,which is more indicative of use in a building rather than a tomb.Further to this elaborate tombs/memorials for the wealthy were usually inside the church,where it was far more desirable to be interred for the well at heel.Tombs/gravestones as we know them now seem to have been a late 17th/early 18th century phenomenom.So,all in all,taking into account the weathering on the skulls and how long they must have been exposed to the elements to get in such a state,and the probable time that they were place in the wall in the yard then its quite possible that the heads were some sort of adornment of the Medieval parish church.If so then they are even more important than at first thought. Thats a good point cnosni, also, if they were in a yard, there would have been a lot more protection from weathering also, so you are probably right about. If you go up Scott hall Road you can actually see the stone in the back of the building alongside national tyers, wasnt aware that you could get access to the building where they are as it looks very secure.

[Si]

That's an interesting thought, Cnosni. The skulls have a kind of medeival look to them IMO. Is there anyone on SL who would know if this were true? However, I guess there's no way we'll ever know for sure. Mists of time, and all that!

[Si]

Also, do we know for sure that the skulls were put there as a memorial to the two unfortunates, or is the story a myth which grew up because of the skulls? Chicken and egg. They may have been dug up by the original workmen and incorporated into the wall. Who knows?

[Phill_d]

Well the book 'haunted Leeds' seems to be a pretty accurate account of this type of thing in Leeds. It states that local folk law says the skulls were for the 2 soldiers. I guess as you say it's shrouded in the mists of time. Whatever the story I think we all agree were the skulls are now isn't the right place and they should be returned. I can't think of anything in the centre of Leeds like this at all.    

[Si]

Me neither, Phill. I agree they should be returned. I'm just trying to see it from all angles, if you see what I mean. I'd love to see them in an appropriate place with a plaque. I feel quite attached to them, whatever their provenance! I'm assuming they'll soon appear in the YEP?

[Brandy]

its weired mate, i feel a strange urge to do right by them?i cannot seem to get them out of my head(no pun intended) i keep trying to figure out just where they actually came from and why they have ended up where they are now?? totally baffled i am???

[Phill_d]

Yes I agree with you guys. I kinda feel a bit sorry for them. Poor things hid away like that. Well e-mails have been sent Si. Were never ones to give up easy are we?    

[Si]

Bloody right!

[cnosni]

Si wrote: Also, do we know for sure that the skulls were put there as a memorial to the two unfortunates, or is the story a myth which grew up because of the skulls? Chicken and egg. They may have been dug up by the original workmen and incorporated into the wall. Who knows? well my thoughts were that that the building,which from the front certainly looks early victorian (judging by the windows)could well have been built around the time of the medieaval churches demolition.I also understand that some redecoration took place on the interior of the 1712-1715,but as everyone seems to agree they have certainly been exposed to the elements for centuriesMy thoughts were that it was a piece of decorative stonework that was removed during the churches dismantling in 1838.Im sure most of the ordinary stonework in decent condition would have been re used in one way or another so its not unreasonable to assume that decorative stonework may have been reused or retained for "novelty"value.As to why its there then ,then one would have to say that the only credible explanation is that it was put there after the death of the two soldiers as a way of marking the event,in othere words someones thought"Weve got these two skulls,lets bob em up there so everyone remembers the two soldiers" .There seems little other reason to place them there,which even in the victorian times ,was a little out of the way.What seems important here is to try and see when these two soldiers had died,any clues in the haunted Leeds book?There were troops deployed on the streets of Leeds on a number of occasions,in 1842 and 1867.Though the 1842 deployment would not have been condusive to public sympathy as they were used to try and quell riots in Holbeck.