Chicken Joe

String o' beads · Post by **String o' beads** » Mon 07 Apr, 2008 10:19 am

Interesting article from Keith Waterhouse: http://tinyurl.com/6emchp

fevlad · Post by **fevlad** » Mon 07 Apr, 2008 12:03 pm

can't be doing with professional northerners I'm afraidBilly Liar was fine though.A far better chronicler of his times and place, who happened to be a school mate of Waterhouse is Richard Hoggart.

roundhegian · Post by **roundhegian** » Mon 07 Apr, 2008 3:21 pm

fevlad wrote: can't be doing with professional northerners I'm afraidBilly Liar was fine though.A far better chronicler of his times and place, who happened to be a school mate of Waterhouse is Richard Hoggart. I'm never entirely certain what a " professional northener " is although generally the term seems to be used - as it is here by Fevlad with his usual high level of certainty - as a criticism and a term of abuse .Fevlad's further opinion of Hoggart as a better " chronicler " again expressed with absolute certainty is of course again his personal judgement .Others may disagree with either or both of his statements .

fevlad · Post by **fevlad** » Mon 07 Apr, 2008 4:43 pm

roundhegian wrote: fevlad wrote: can't be doing with professional northerners I'm afraidBilly Liar was fine though.A far better chronicler of his times and place, who happened to be a school mate of Waterhouse is Richard Hoggart. I'm never entirely certain what a " professional northener " is although generally the term seems to be used - as it is here by Fevlad with his usual high level of certainty - as a criticism and a term of abuse .Fevlad's further opinion of Hoggart as a better " chronicler " again expressed with absolute certainty is of course again his personal judgement .Others may disagree with either or both of his statements . I'm just giving my point of view. Are you familiar with Hoggart's work?Where do you get the 'certainty' shtick? I said I can't be doing with professional northerners: people who trade on stereotypical Northern characteristics as part of their public persona. These people aren't my cup of tea, because they narrow down the cultural scope of the place they profess to represent, often caricature it(quite inaccurately) and make a living out of it. Am I not entitled to think that?waterhouse is nowhere near the worst and much of his stuff is outside this field-his novel 'the bucket shop' for instance.His Novella Billy Liar almost started the genre. Ironically it is about a man who attempts to transcend, esacpe the liofe in a northern town that he feels suffocates him, by living a parrallel(often funny and at times poignant) fantasy life-but is unable or perhaps unwilling to take the chance of a genuine escape when he gets the chance.I can recommend Hoggart's scholarly 'The Uses of Literacy, and 'A Loal Habitation'.Both Hoggart and Waterhouse attended Coburn High School in South Leeds.IMHO both have made a significant contribution to the cultural life of post war uk and I feel it woild be good if the city of Leeds acknowledged it i some tangible way-maybe they have.

wiggy · Post by **wiggy** » Mon 07 Apr, 2008 6:20 pm

i'm a fan of k.w..he gives it to you almost tongue in cheek and i think you have to be a northerner to get some of it.i live down sarff now,and what really gets up my nose,is the way all southerners seem to think we are all very poor up north,very thick and all wear flat caps and have whippets,ferrets or pigeons.a lot of this is probably to do with fasion for all things northern,started in the 60s by people like hoggart and waterhouse,but then again i don't get priestlys' snobbish take on us,what i mean is,was he been satirical about the satirists or just been snooty??

fevlad · Post by **fevlad** » Mon 07 Apr, 2008 7:44 pm

wiggy wrote: i'm a fan of k.w..he gives it to you almost tongue in cheek and i think you have to be a northerner to get some of it.i live down sarff now,and what really gets up my nose,is the way all southerners seem to think we are all very poor up north,very thick and all wear flat caps and have whippets,ferrets or pigeons.a lot of this is probably to do with fasion for all things northern,started in the 60s by people like hoggart and waterhouse,but then again i don't get priestlys' snobbish take on us,what i mean is,was he been satirical about the satirists or just been snooty?? I think waterhouse is avery talented, and I enjoy his early work.I just think he reinforces the stereotypes you mention-not as much as others.Jb Priestley as with waterhouse wrote about other things as well-the theatre for instance.He was a brilliant broadcaster during world war 2. I wasn't around at the time but I've read transacripts, and heard recordings and people who were aroind at the time have told me the effect he had.Howard Spring was another Northern writer who like Priestley preceded waterhouse, Hynes, Barstow etc, although his work was based on manchester and salford. I lose interest and get a bit tetchy when people make gerealisations and stereotypes about the North of England in Literature and broadcasting, the same goes for sentimentalising of life in the North of England-which was and is bad as well as good.

Trojan · Post by **Trojan** » Mon 07 Apr, 2008 10:48 pm

I think Waterhouse has become a living parody of his former self. Billy Liar's not all that good, but caught the fashion of northern writers, "There is a Happy Land" is very good, and for me his best is "Jubb" which is about a dirty old (well middle aged) man. His columns in the Mirror used to be good in the sixties and seventies but his writings in the Mail IMO are much like the rest of the paper, poisonous and unpleasant. For what it's worth I wasn't aware that Hunslet Feast took place at Easter.We couldn't afford chicken at Easter - only at Christmas, when Mr Stokes who lived up the street and kept some hens for eggs (it was rationing) would kill one or two that had stopped laying a "boiling fowl" my mam would call it - but as I recall it was always very tasty and we enjoyed it. You can still get "boiling fowls" on the market. I had one once and caseroled it, but it didn't taste of much neither was the stock up to much either - a disappointment.

fevlad · Post by **fevlad** » Tue 08 Apr, 2008 7:58 am

Trojan wrote: I think Waterhouse has become a living parody of his former self. Billy Liar's not all that good, but caught the fashion of northern writers, "There is a Happy Land" is very good, and for me his best is "Jubb" which is about a dirty old (well middle aged) man. His columns in the Mirror used to be good in the sixties and seventies but his writings in the Mail IMO are much like the rest of the paper, poisonous and unpleasant. For what it's worth I wasn't aware that Hunslet Feast took place at Easter.We couldn't afford chicken at Easter - only at Christmas, when Mr Stokes who lived up the street and kept some hens for eggs (it was rationing) would kill one or two that had stopped laying a "boiling fowl" my mam would call it - but as I recall it was always very tasty and we enjoyed it. You can still get "boiling fowls" on the market. I had one once and caseroled it, but it didn't taste of much neither was the stock up to much either - a disappointment. the thing about Billy Liar was that it broke a mould.It was in a way like Kingsley Amiss' 'Lucky Jim'. I read BL when I was about 15 and it had a major effect on me there were very few books around that you could actually identify with the main character. I agree about there is a happy land. I didn't enjoy Jubb much though.I've tried to make the best out of boiling fowl off the market in the past as well. They just don't work-rustic cooking? pah! I haven't seen one for years. Chicken(not turkey) was a delicacy only for christmas in our house and came from my uncle pete's alotment.

fevlad · Post by **fevlad** » Tue 08 Apr, 2008 9:52 am

fevlad wrote: Trojan wrote: I think Waterhouse has become a living parody of his former self. Billy Liar's not all that good, but caught the fashion of northern writers, "There is a Happy Land" is very good, and for me his best is "Jubb" which is about a dirty old (well middle aged) man. His columns in the Mirror used to be good in the sixties and seventies but his writings in the Mail IMO are much like the rest of the paper, poisonous and unpleasant. For what it's worth I wasn't aware that Hunslet Feast took place at Easter.We couldn't afford chicken at Easter - only at Christmas, when Mr Stokes who lived up the street and kept some hens for eggs (it was rationing) would kill one or two that had stopped laying a "boiling fowl" my mam would call it - but as I recall it was always very tasty and we enjoyed it. You can still get "boiling fowls" on the market. I had one once and caseroled it, but it didn't taste of much neither was the stock up to much either - a disappointment. the thing about Billy Liar was that it broke a mould.It was in a way like Kingsley Amiss' 'Lucky Jim'. I read BL when I was about 15 and it had a major effect on me there were very few books around that you could actually identify with the main character. I agree about there is a happy land. I didn't enjoy Jubb much though.I've tried to make the best out of boiling fowl off the market in the past as well. They just don't work-rustic cooking? pah! I haven't seen one for years. Chicken(not turkey) was a delicacy only for christmas in our house and came from my uncle pete's alotment.it wasn't until the 1970s that I even saw a turkey

Trojan · Post by **Trojan** » Tue 08 Apr, 2008 10:53 pm

wiggy wrote: i'm a fan of k.w..he gives it to you almost tongue in cheek and i think you have to be a northerner to get some of it.i live down sarff now,and what really gets up my nose,is the way all southerners seem to think we are all very poor up north,very thick and all wear flat caps and have whippets,ferrets or pigeons.a lot of this is probably to do with fasion for all things northern,started in the 60s by people like hoggart and waterhouse,but then again i don't get priestlys' snobbish take on us,what i mean is,was he been satirical about the satirists or just been snooty?? In the past I've had several holidays on the River Thames - between Oxford and Teddington - on cabin cruisers. We were always made to feel welcome wherever we went. In 1972/3/4 and then in 1983. But it was a different story in 1993. There seemed to be a resentment that we were using their pubs and facilities for our holidays that hadn't been there before. My wife and I and my children who were teenagers at the time were in one pub in Goring on Thames playing bar billiards and we overheard one snotty miss say "has he brought his whippets?" We weren't behaving badly, or making a lot of noise, (we were quite obviously from Yorkshire of course) but everywhere there seemed to be a resentment. I couldn't weigh it up. Why the change? The penny dropped a few weeks later - the late eighties/early nineties recession had for the first time hit the south and even the well heeled Thames Valley, as hard as its predecessors had hit the north and they didn't like it one little bit. I've never been back. I've never felt resentment like that anywhere before either here, or abroad. People are fond of slagging off the French but I've been made more welcome in bars in France (in provincial towns I mean) than we were in our own country.