Farewell to GNER

spongebob · Post by **spongebob** » Sun 09 Dec, 2007 7:34 pm

It may not be common knowledge but today marks the transfer of the East coast mainline franchise from GNER to National Express. This will have some effect on Leeds as the railway station is or rather was run by GNER.Here's a glimpse of what you can expect to see rolling in and out of Leeds station in the future......http://www.flickr.com/photos/9822367@N03/ Filmed in Scotland presumably for promotional purposes as the new livery isn't officially unveiled until Tuesday.As an interim measure until repainting the HST's and 225 sets are getting the GNER markings removed and a rather natty vinyl white stripe and numbers on the sides, this seems to be done somewhat piecemeal at the moment but should look a bit like this.....http://mikesgallery.fotopic.net/p47042299.htmlAnyway goodbye to GNER and good luck to National Express east coast or whatever they're calling themselves.

roundhegian · Post by **roundhegian** » Sun 09 Dec, 2007 8:37 pm

spongebob wrote: It may not be common knowledge but today marks the transfer of the East coast mainline franchise from GNER to National Express. This will have some effect on Leeds as the railway station is or rather was run by GNER.Here's a glimpse of what you can expect to see rolling in and out of Leeds station in the future......http://www.flickr.com/photos/9822367@N03/ Filmed in Scotland presumably for promotional purposes as the new livery isn't officially unveiled until Tuesday.As an interim measure until repainting the HST's and 225 sets are getting the GNER markings removed and a rather natty vinyl white stripe and numbers on the sides, this seems to be done somewhat piecemeal at the moment but should look a bit like this.....http://mikesgallery.fotopic.net/p47042299.htmlAnyway goodbye to GNER and good luck to National Express east coast or whatever they're calling themselves. GNER provided an excellent service over the years and was much liked by passengers . Unfortunately it was disliked and treated badly by Labour politicians - who on more than one occasion refused to extend the franchise - probably because they thought the principal shareholder had in their view right-wing views .GNER managers allowed themselves to be pushed into a situation where they overbid for the franchise which worsened the financial state of the holding company Sea Containers . Yet another example of politicians disregarding the views of the tax-paying public .

Post by **cnosni** » Sun 09 Dec, 2007 9:57 pm

roundhegian wrote: spongebob wrote: It may not be common knowledge but today marks the transfer of the East coast mainline franchise from GNER to National Express. This will have some effect on Leeds as the railway station is or rather was run by GNER.Here's a glimpse of what you can expect to see rolling in and out of Leeds station in the future......http://www.flickr.com/photos/9822367@N03/ Filmed in Scotland presumably for promotional purposes as the new livery isn't officially unveiled until Tuesday.As an interim measure until repainting the HST's and 225 sets are getting the GNER markings removed and a rather natty vinyl white stripe and numbers on the sides, this seems to be done somewhat piecemeal at the moment but should look a bit like this.....http://mikesgallery.fotopic.net/p47042299.htmlAnyway goodbye to GNER and good luck to National Express east coast or whatever they're calling themselves. GNER provided an excellent service over the years and was much liked by passengers . Unfortunately it was disliked and treated badly by Labour politicians - who on more than one occasion refused to extend the franchise - probably because they thought the principal shareholder had in their view right-wing views .GNER managers allowed themselves to be pushed into a situation where they overbid for the franchise which worsened the financial state of the holding company Sea Containers . Yet another example of politicians disregarding the views of the tax-paying public . Seaco were on their uppers already,they had nothing to lose by GNER getting the franchise at any cost,they figured that keeping hold of it and milking it for all they could,and then try and back the government into a corner to renegotiate the franchise(eventually trying using the 7/7 bombings as an excuse) for not being able to meet the ludicrous £1.5bn promised to the governments coffers.The fact of the matter is that the management of GNER,on the whole,was pretty good.This is why the "Management Contract" awarded to them until the new franchise holder came into place was so successful.they met the revenue targets set by the government,and exceeded them.Whereas before all the money that GNER had accrued during a weeks operations went to another part of the SEACO empire,which as we now know,was crumbling.Its a combination of all these factors that lead to this situation.

roundhegian · Post by **roundhegian** » Mon 10 Dec, 2007 12:22 am

cnosni wrote: roundhegian wrote: spongebob wrote: It may not be common knowledge but today marks the transfer of the East coast mainline franchise from GNER to National Express. This will have some effect on Leeds as the railway station is or rather was run by GNER.Here's a glimpse of what you can expect to see rolling in and out of Leeds station in the future......http://www.flickr.com/photos/9822367@N03/ Filmed in Scotland presumably for promotional purposes as the new livery isn't officially unveiled until Tuesday.As an interim measure until repainting the HST's and 225 sets are getting the GNER markings removed and a rather natty vinyl white stripe and numbers on the sides, this seems to be done somewhat piecemeal at the moment but should look a bit like this.....http://mikesgallery.fotopic.net/p47042299.htmlAnyway goodbye to GNER and good luck to National Express east coast or whatever they're calling themselves. GNER provided an excellent service over the years and was much liked by passengers . Unfortunately it was disliked and treated badly by Labour politicians - who on more than one occasion refused to extend the franchise - probably because they thought the principal shareholder had in their view right-wing views .GNER managers allowed themselves to be pushed into a situation where they overbid for the franchise which worsened the financial state of the holding company Sea Containers . Yet another example of politicians disregarding the views of the tax-paying public . Seaco were on their uppers already,they had nothing to lose by GNER getting the franchise at any cost,they figured that keeping hold of it and milking it for all they could,and then try and back the government into a corner to renegotiate the franchise(eventually trying using the 7/7 bombings as an excuse) for not being able to meet the ludicrous £1.5bn promised to the governments coffers.The fact of the matter is that the management of GNER,on the whole,was pretty good.This is why the "Management Contract" awarded to them until the new franchise holder came into place was so successful.they met the revenue targets set by the government,and exceeded them.Whereas before all the money that GNER had accrued during a weeks operations went to another part of the SEACO empire,which as we now know,was crumbling.Its a combination of all these factors that lead to this situation.

roundhegian · Post by **roundhegian** » Mon 10 Dec, 2007 12:25 am

cnosni wrote: roundhegian wrote: spongebob wrote: It may not be common knowledge but today marks the transfer of the East coast mainline franchise from GNER to National Express. This will have some effect on Leeds as the railway station is or rather was run by GNER.Here's a glimpse of what you can expect to see rolling in and out of Leeds station in the future......http://www.flickr.com/photos/9822367@N03/ Filmed in Scotland presumably for promotional purposes as the new livery isn't officially unveiled until Tuesday.As an interim measure until repainting the HST's and 225 sets are getting the GNER markings removed and a rather natty vinyl white stripe and numbers on the sides, this seems to be done somewhat piecemeal at the moment but should look a bit like this.....http://mikesgallery.fotopic.net/p47042299.htmlAnyway goodbye to GNER and good luck to National Express east coast or whatever they're calling themselves. GNER provided an excellent service over the years and was much liked by passengers . Unfortunately it was disliked and treated badly by Labour politicians - who on more than one occasion refused to extend the franchise - probably because they thought the principal shareholder had in their view right-wing views .GNER managers allowed themselves to be pushed into a situation where they overbid for the franchise which worsened the financial state of the holding company Sea Containers . Yet another example of politicians disregarding the views of the tax-paying public . Seaco were on their uppers already,they had nothing to lose by GNER getting the franchise at any cost,they figured that keeping hold of it and milking it for all they could,and then try and back the government into a corner to renegotiate the franchise(eventually trying using the 7/7 bombings as an excuse) for not being able to meet the ludicrous £1.5bn promised to the governments coffers.The fact of the matter is that the management of GNER,on the whole,was pretty good.This is why the "Management Contract" awarded to them until the new franchise holder came into place was so successful.they met the revenue targets set by the government,and exceeded them.Whereas before all the money that GNER had accrued during a weeks operations went to another part of the SEACO empire,which as we now know,was crumbling.Its a combination of all these factors that lead to this situation. Good to know politicians still have apologists !

Post by **cnosni** » Mon 10 Dec, 2007 12:28 pm

roundhegian wrote: cnosni wrote: roundhegian wrote: spongebob wrote: It may not be common knowledge but today marks the transfer of the East coast mainline franchise from GNER to National Express. This will have some effect on Leeds as the railway station is or rather was run by GNER.Here's a glimpse of what you can expect to see rolling in and out of Leeds station in the future......http://www.flickr.com/photos/9822367@N03/ Filmed in Scotland presumably for promotional purposes as the new livery isn't officially unveiled until Tuesday.As an interim measure until repainting the HST's and 225 sets are getting the GNER markings removed and a rather natty vinyl white stripe and numbers on the sides, this seems to be done somewhat piecemeal at the moment but should look a bit like this.....http://mikesgallery.fotopic.net/p47042299.htmlAnyway goodbye to GNER and good luck to National Express east coast or whatever they're calling themselves. GNER provided an excellent service over the years and was much liked by passengers . Unfortunately it was disliked and treated badly by Labour politicians - who on more than one occasion refused to extend the franchise - probably because they thought the principal shareholder had in their view right-wing views .GNER managers allowed themselves to be pushed into a situation where they overbid for the franchise which worsened the financial state of the holding company Sea Containers . Yet another example of politicians disregarding the views of the tax-paying public . Seaco were on their uppers already,they had nothing to lose by GNER getting the franchise at any cost,they figured that keeping hold of it and milking it for all they could,and then try and back the government into a corner to renegotiate the franchise(eventually trying using the 7/7 bombings as an excuse) for not being able to meet the ludicrous £1.5bn promised to the governments coffers.The fact of the matter is that the management of GNER,on the whole,was pretty good.This is why the "Management Contract" awarded to them until the new franchise holder came into place was so successful.they met the revenue targets set by the government,and exceeded them.Whereas before all the money that GNER had accrued during a weeks operations went to another part of the SEACO empire,which as we now know,was crumbling.Its a combination of all these factors that lead to this situation. Good to know politicians still have apologists ! What do you mean?

Post by **cnosni** » Mon 10 Dec, 2007 1:22 pm

well roundhegian,if you are inferring that i am trying to blame the loss of the franchise squarely at GNER,i am not.Which is why the last line of my message states"Its a combination of all these factors that led to this situation"It was well known within GNER that SEACO was on the skids,well before the franchise bid was announced in 2005.We were told that the various ferry line services were being sold off,the Orient Express would be going and that there was some"Irregularities" within the companys value.When we saw what was bid for the new franchise in 2005 we knew it was not possible,besides the ludicrous amount of money promised to the government the company had also come up with a scheme to electrify the line out of East Leeds to the main line at Hambleton,that would have cost tens of millions of pounds,and if SEACO could not afford to retain the business portfolio it had then there was no way on gods earth they could afford the electrification.Its true to say Mr Prescott (or as he is known on GNER as "3 Sausages")did not like GNER,but he had not been in charge of transport for some time before the rebid process for 2005(he lost responsibility in 2001), although it would not be unreasonable to say he could have been in the background in one form or another during the toings and froings last year. However,if there was such an anti GNER feeling in the government then they would not have got the franchise in 2005.They won it because they made the biggest bid,a ludicrously big bid.Whether the government pushed the management of GNER into making such a large bid is open to discussion,but at the end of the day the final responsibilty of what was bid was down to GNER/SEACO.Below is an article extract from the times"GNER won a new, ten-year franchise to operate the railway in early 2005 but its annual payment to the Government swelled to £130 million, roughly four times the amount it had paid under its previous franchise. GNER’s parent company, Sea Containers, which has been crippled by financial problems of its own, has struggled to meet these repayments. Cost pressures on the company mounted during 2005, with rising energy prices and the impact of the July 7 bombings in London, which hampered rail passenger traffic. The company is now thought to have only a few weeks left before it breaches its liquidity ratio — the amount of cash the business is required by law to maintain to meet its franchise agreement. GNER’s former chief executive, Christopher Garnett, acknowledged that the group had overbid. The decision to allow GNER to continue to operate the railway under new conditions is bound to stir up controversy among rival UK rail operators facing similar cost pressures. The DfT, which has been locked in talks with Sea Containers for almost two months, has repeatedly stated that it does not renegotiate rail franchises. In October, Bermuda-registered Sea Containers filed for Chapter 11 bankrupty protection from creditors after it had breached banking covenants. The company has also sold off some of its ferry businesses in an effort to restructure its finances"So there you go,im afraid that no matter what you may think about GNERs service,and what the passengers actually want,it is of little significance compared to the money factor,something that both sides in this debacle have tried to exploit.

raveydavey · Post by **raveydavey** » Mon 10 Dec, 2007 9:24 pm

National Express East Coast will be the same trains, manned by the same crews, running on the same tracks.Leeds station is run by Network Rail (or Notwork Rail, or whatever they're called this week). People assume GNER run it as GNER had near exclusive use of the first platform through the barriers and that was where their information kiosk was.I've only used GNERS services twice in recent years. The first time was an unrefurbished HST set with no air-con in the coach we were in on a hot summers day. The guard ended up wedging the sliding doors at either end of the coach open and lowering the vestibule windows (fortunately no-one stuck their head out at 125mph).The other time was on an unrefurbished IC225 set which had working A/C but was very tired inside in terms of decor etc.All rolling stock has been refurbed now which is apparently a great improvement.One thing is for sure, GNER dealt with some difficult situations not of it's own making very well (Great Heck, etc) and was well thought of by most of it's customers. NXEC have much to live up to.

roundhegian · Post by **roundhegian** » Wed 12 Dec, 2007 12:59 pm

raveydavey wrote: National Express East Coast will be the same trains, manned by the same crews, running on the same tracks.Leeds station is run by Network Rail (or Notwork Rail, or whatever they're called this week). People assume GNER run it as GNER had near exclusive use of the first platform through the barriers and that was where their information kiosk was.I've only used GNERS services twice in recent years. The first time was an unrefurbished HST set with no air-con in the coach we were in on a hot summers day. The guard ended up wedging the sliding doors at either end of the coach open and lowering the vestibule windows (fortunately no-one stuck their head out at 125mph).The other time was on an unrefurbished IC225 set which had working A/C but was very tired inside in terms of decor etc.All rolling stock has been refurbed now which is apparently a great improvement.One thing is for sure, GNER dealt with some difficult situations not of it's own making very well (Great Heck, etc) and was well thought of by most of it's customers. NXEC have much to live up to. I do agree that GNER was an admirable company and arguably the best of the companies that operated the newly-privatised railway. It inherited old rolling-stock which it gradually refurbished and as raveydavey writes it dealt very competently with incidents at Great Heck and near Hatfield .James Sherwood ( of Orient Express fame ) was a long-standing railway enthusiast and a believer in the railway tradition . The title GNER was a reflection of the company LNER running the east-coast main-line before nationalisation and two of the companies ( Great Northern [ GN ] and North Eastern [ NE ] ) that operated the service prior to the government-enforced amalgamations of 1923 .As an aside it is worth noting that the highly-profitable North Eastern Railway had put together a plan to electrify the main line between York and the Scottish border in the 1920s . After the 1923 government-enforced amalgamations ( please note an early example of political interference ) the newly-created LNER because of loss-making constituent companies did not have the money to go through with the scheme . The chief executive of GNER Christopher Garnett and his senior managers were enthusiastic about the railway as an effective form of mass-transport , communicated that enthusiasm to all GNER's employees and every one contributed to the the growth of business on GNER's routes .To turn to " cnosni " I was not suggesting that he blamed GNER and its employees for the company's failure ; I was commenting that he seems to be an apologist for those Labour politicians who bear a very significant responsibility for the demise of GNER .On another thread he writes that he is a Labour-voter . Perhaps he is also a Labour-activist .From 1997 successive senior government figures were hostile to GNER . The company applied for a number of other rail franchises but in spite of its record of competence and customer satisfaction with its services it was never granted further rail-franchises .Additionally - in spite of its clear success - it was refused on more than one occasion an extension of its existing franchise . All of this was before the mistakenly-high bid of 2005 .There is no doubt in my mind that within the government there was long-standing hostility to GNER and Sherwood . Equally there is no doubt in my mind that this hostility caused a state-of-mind which believed that only a very high bid would retain the franchise for GNER .The financial state of the holding company is a factor but is not as important as " cnosni " describes it . His diatribe possibly says a great deal about his view of the private-sector . GNER's target was to grow its business not to meet some target imposed by politicians with no experience of life outside politics ; government targets are as meaningless in the rail industry as they are elsewhere . The London bombings on 7 July did result in fewer tourists visiting Britain and this did have an impact on GNER's revenue .The government decision to allow another operator on GNER's route also had an undoubted impact .To extend the point about decisions made by Labour politicians it was of course a Labour minister who called a halt to the Leeds Supertram scheme and it was Labour politicians who closed a modern plant at Barnbow in favour of retaining a much older plant in Newcastle .

jf · Post by jf » Wed 12 Dec, 2007 11:36 pm

roundhegian wrote: I do agree that GNER was an admirable company and arguably the best of the companies that operated the newly-privatised railway. It inherited old rolling-stock which it gradually refurbished and as raveydavey writes it dealt very competently with incidents at Great Heck and near Hatfield . That's not actually correct - GNER inherited the most recently modernised line (electrified in the late 80's) with the majority of rolling stock dating from the same period. It got a better deal in this respect than most other operators whose assets dated from the 60's and 70's. These other operators have now invested in new stock (more precisely are leasing it from banks who have fronted the cash) and are catching up. There are some issues with the infrastructure - the BR electrification was achieved with a degree of cost engineering typical of that era, and is less robust than it ought to be, with masts spaced further apart to save on materials but less capable of standing up in the gales.