Aircraft identification help needed

Railways, trams, buses, etc.
User avatar
liits
Posts: 1153
Joined: Sun 25 Mar, 2007 11:24 am
Location: North London
Contact:

Aircraft identification help needed

Post by liits »

York Road.jpg
York Road.jpg (345.32 KiB) Viewed 4283 times
While having a trawl through flicker at photos of Leeds trams, my attention was drawn to one of the pics that I had previously viewed [but only looked at the tram].
The pic shows an ex-London Feltham tram coming down York Road and has just reached the “Highways”
To the right of the tram is a lorry carrying the cockpit of an aeroplane. One of the comments accompanying the pic is
“Interesting rig on the right hand side, Looks like an Air Force Bedford transporting a Westland Whirlwind helicopter fuselage....”
Now, I’m pretty sure that it isn’t a Westland Whirlwind but I don’t know what it is.
Can anybody help?

j.c.d.
Posts: 571
Joined: Mon 27 Jan, 2014 4:54 pm

Re: Aircraft identification help needed

Post by j.c.d. »

Good Morning.. To me it does look like the Whirlwind at first glance but as they were relatively new in the 1950s what would the wreckage of one be doing in Leeds. I was in the R.A.F.in Bristol and we shared the Airfield with the Bristol Aeroplane Company who were busy making the "Newest Thing", the one and two rotor blade 'coptors they were working closely with Westland of nearby Yeovil who had their different versions at the Bristol factory. we used to watch the engineers putting them through their paces and the Whirlwind was one of them.
The split windscreen on the picture could be a clue but again the model was used by the Royal Navy so what is the Leeds connection..
I will try and put this picture on a Forces site and see if anyone can come up with a solution
Regards Jack Daly
Last edited by j.c.d. on Wed 30 Sep, 2015 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
liits
Posts: 1153
Joined: Sun 25 Mar, 2007 11:24 am
Location: North London
Contact:

Re: Aircraft identification help needed

Post by liits »

Thanks j.c.d.
Having now trawled a bit more and seen some decent photos of the Whirlwind, I'm a bit more convinced than I was [although I'm still not 100%].

User avatar
buffaloskinner
Posts: 1435
Joined: Sun 01 Apr, 2007 6:02 pm
Location: Nova Scotia

Re: Aircraft identification help needed

Post by buffaloskinner »

Definitely a Bedford truck, I used to drive them occasionally when I worked at Tate Trucks. They were also well known as the Green Goddesses in the Fire Brigade.

The houses on the right were known as the Diadems in the old days, they were just below the Suttons. The Highways flats had not been built yet, the Highways flats got their name from the Highways Dept yard at the bottom of Killingbeck Bridge, of which Wyke Beck flows underneath and there was also a tunnel under the railway embankment at the side of the Highways Dept. At the other side of the railway embankment was Primrose Valley and the old coal heaps from the mine; we used to call it the Black Hills and would use them for all sorts of fun and games, particularly with bikes.

On the left of the picture on the other side of the wall was a very large pond where we would fish for tiddlers, sticklebacks, frogs, newts and frog spawn during the summer months. There was a also a path which led up to Killingbeck Hall and the Smallpox Hospital.

The trams lasted until I was 10 years old and I can remember standing at the bottom of Selby Road along with what seemed to be hundreds of people waving a fond farewell. I used to catch the tram up York Road to go to the Regal or Ritz cinemas at Crossgates.

As for the helicopter fuselage, I’m not too sure. It does not seem to be quite the right shape for the 1954 models I have looked at in the internet. The front seems to be much flatter on the transporter.

Image
Is this the end of the story ...or the beginning of a legend?

j.c.d.
Posts: 571
Joined: Mon 27 Jan, 2014 4:54 pm

Re: Aircraft identification help needed

Post by j.c.d. »

Great Reply B.S. I think you are right about the plane with this picture.
Don't remember a pond but did spend many happy hours fishing for tiddlers, newts and frogs in Monkey bridge stream which went under York Road.. Going up to the "Fever Hospital" there was Bluebell wood. and to the left of the path was an Orchard with high red railings around, the oldest amongst us would go over and get the apples and any sight of the owner and we would be off. Happy days

User avatar
Leodian
Posts: 6485
Joined: Thu 10 Jun, 2010 8:03 am

Re: Aircraft identification help needed

Post by Leodian »

That's a great picture of a tram (and another to the rear).

Buffaloskiner's mention of the Regal and Ritz cinemas reminded me of my visits to those using a tram to get there and back. I recall there used to be a thick concrete shelter at the terminus opposite the Regal (perhaps the shelter is still there). The pond is still there on the left going up York Road just before the retail park, though when I see it from a bus it does look to be smaller than it used to be before the area it is in became more accessible to/from the retail park. Apologies for wandering off the main topic.

PS. Trams had fixed routes but unlike the proposed trolleybus scheme there were very many more tram routes.
A rainbow is a ribbon that Nature puts on when she washes her hair.

User avatar
Happy Valley
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue 18 Nov, 2014 2:44 pm
Location: Calder Valley

Re: Aircraft identification help needed

Post by Happy Valley »

Around the time we were discussing Austhorpe Farm earlier in the year I was working on some research into this photo after finding it on Flickr a few weeks earlier. There is another photo on the same stream that I thought was worth discussing in another thread sometime, but all my research and links for a couple of thread ideas I was working on at the time is stuck on a dead laptop at the moment.

To help date the picture, I believe from the young age of the other vehicles in the photo that it was taken around the time that the end of trams in Leeds had been announced, and that the tram was what the photographer was after capturing rather than the crash damaged helicopter on the transporter. I have looked closely at many small details on the picture and to various undamaged images of Westland Whirlwinds, and to me it does look like this is the correct type of aircraft.

Because it is only a short timeframe of a couple of years to search through due to the age of the van, I have looked into all the AAIB Westland Whirlwind crash reports in the timeframe between the age of vehicles and the end of trams, and found nothing in the Yorkshire or surrounding counties that would explain it travelling down York Road towards Leeds centre. From memory the Yorkshire coastal area Westland Whirlwind incidents all took place out to sea a couple of years after the end of trams in Leeds.

I did discover that around this time period that the RAF was pulling aircraft out of RAF Yeadon. I did consider that due to the old Leeds road network being more suitable for the RAF to transport the big pull out by road through Leeds via York Road, that it was possibly something to do with that at first, but from further research into this I found that RAF Yeadon had no helicopters stationed there at any time before the RAF closure, so I have now discounted this as a possibility.

With the airframe not being covered up on the transporter to preserve air accident evidence, I don’t think it was being recovered directly from the scene of a crash site. I can find no record on the internet of a military helicopter crash anywhere close to Leeds around this time that this could have been recovered from.

I think it had possibly travelled to York Road from somewhere like maybe RAF Elvington or RAF Church Fenton and was heading to a static display at a gala or show in Leeds or surrounding towns. After checking through some other threads on here to make sure it wasn’t already being discussed in another thread, I think that it was possibly on its way to Roundhay Park for static display at the old armed forces day discussed in another Secret Leeds thread, which is where I was probably going to post my research about it had I finished typing it all up before my laptop died.

At present I am still at a loss as to where and when this helicopter actually crashed, but the Westland Whirlwind was involved in many fatal accidents and incidents during RAF service, including one incident of either engine or gearbox failure on takeoff where Prince Philip was onboard the aircraft. I believe that this incident resulted in the Royal Squadron stopping using the Westland Whirlwind for Royal flights.

The RAF tends to keep hold of wrecked aircraft for static displays many years after the accident. A couple of years ago the RAF was rattling tins etc outside our local supermarket with a static display of the wreckage of a helicopter shot down during the Falklands war, and I’ve seen plenty of RAF base urbex pictures of downed old aircraft wreckage being used for military training exercises, so there is a slim possibility that the airframe could still exist somewhere today.

j.c.d.
Posts: 571
Joined: Mon 27 Jan, 2014 4:54 pm

Re: Aircraft identification help needed

Post by j.c.d. »

Some very interesting reading but the Whirlwind was really a Nay Kite and the fact it is on a Navy truck would indicate it would not be coming from the R.A.F. Stations plus coming down York Road would not seem to be heading for Roundhay Park. Not nit picking. just puzzled

User avatar
liits
Posts: 1153
Joined: Sun 25 Mar, 2007 11:24 am
Location: North London
Contact:

Re: Aircraft identification help needed

Post by liits »

Great info, Happy Valley, but - and I hate to say this, I'm still not convinced that its a Whirlwind.
Here is a crop / enlargement of the truck & airframe....
Image
The reason for my doubts are the shape of the cockpit windscreens and number of pieces of glass in them.
Also, there seems to the lack of a load door on the starboard side but it looks like there is the RAF roundel.
Here's a pic of a Whirlwind.
Image

User avatar
mhoulden
Posts: 402
Joined: Fri 27 Nov, 2009 8:00 pm
Location: Wortley
Contact:

Re: Aircraft identification help needed

Post by mhoulden »

I think it looks more like a de Havilland Dragon Rapide/Dominie:
Image

These were used as training aircraft by the RAF and Fleet Air Arm until the 1960s. There were a lot of RAF bases in what is now North Yorkshire, plus an RNAS base at Dalton, so it probably came from one of those.

Post Reply